from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Jan 1 00:05:07 2001 f01657a16373 VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: power fibers from my experience working in a fine fly shop insouthcentral Pa. There arerelatively few $700 fly rods sold made of graphite. A quick browse of the Kaufmann's Streamborn site reveals Sage SP and SPLseries spanning $535-700 and Winstons spanning $595-695. These aren'tsuggested retail prices. These are real prices at a major mail ordercompany. The G. Loomis site features GLXs ranging up to $675. Sure thereare more affordable rods such as St. Croix, etc but the point is that newgraphite rods are approaching the cost of rods sold by makers such as A.J.Thramer, Terry Ackland, et al. If those rods were displayed along side theSage, Loomis, Orvis, etc, I suspect some would choose bamboo. Richard from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Jan 1 01:01:31 2001 f0171Ta17561 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 15:01:25 +0800 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 15:01:23 +0800 Subject: Mass apeal rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu clue to the reality of the situation. BTW, someone mentioned theChinese, from what I hear they are already at it, just what the worldneeds.John That may have been me though there could have been others too.Don't know about other countrys but Australia has been trading with Chinasince the mid 70's, I've done some direct dealing with various Chinese andViet Nam companys when I was the stock controller of a mountaineeringchain of stores and there are a few things I came to realise. The Chinese can make anything you like to any standard you need. Normallythat standard is low to mid because China is a great place to knock outthat sort of gear however they like anybody can make excellent gear. Alwaysget an exact sample of the product being made from the factory making thegear. It does pay to have somebody in China answerable to you financiallyto control the quality otherwise it's possible you'll wind up with junk. Weused to joke that sooner or later we'll open a container and find it fullof dead rats. Occasionally that wasn't far from the truth but that onlyhappened when our rep was slacking off or paid more by the makers than wepaid to look the other way. Those are the hassles but from a money making side there are someadvantages too: You get to deal with companys with names like Red Face, Hung Fat and LongHung, the secretarys always liked that. It may not be the case these days but it somehow worked that the factorydidn't need to make a profit on a run. Output was more important thanprofit sometimes and it seemed to me all the middle men took so much ofeverything there wasn't much left for the factories anyhow. Third world countrys don't pay much attention to worker age or conditions,forget the official line, they don't care. If something needs to be made toa certain price they'll find somewhere to make it for that price. There aresome pretty hard up parts of central China, Viet Nam and needless to sayIndonesia is still a basket case and set to get worse just ask Nike.Lets not forget Africa. You can buy Kenyan trout flys for $3.50 a dozpriovided you want to buy a couple hundred doz a time or you could set up agold mine 5 miles deep and expect 20-30 miners to be killed annualy butlife's cheap and so are the wages.That means of course it would be no problem at all to R&D (Ripoff andDeceive) a couple hundred Morgan Mills for eg and set people from 12 yo upto work for a couple bucks a day to make splines day in day out. In factlabor intensive jobs are what China and these other places need. If the mobbuying this stuff want perfect arrow straight blanks and impeccable wrapsthat's what they'll get of course that would cost extra, maybe as much asan extra $1.75 per rod. I understand what Terry is saying but IMHO the minute there looks like amass market would buy support cheap bamboo rods the big boys will hijack itas fast as a rat up a drain pipe and anybody tooled up to do the same in asmall way would sink. How many people are making a go of making sub $200 graphite rods incompetition with Asian stuff? The cheap good mass made bamboo rod is a thing you wont win on any morethan anybody wanting to make a living making cheap graphite rods in the US,UK or here. If you wanted to make good money without touching the rawmaterials based on the mass market make baked beans or pizza, they sell. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from caneman@clnk.com Mon Jan 1 01:20:18 2001 f017KHa18186 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Mon, 1 Jan 2001 01:20:16 -0600 Subject: Fw: power fibers List, This was originally on off list letter to one of my rodmaking friendsthat suggested that I post it to the list. At first I thought... "No, Itwill yank some chains...", but afterthought made me realize that this listis about honest and fortheright postings, so here is my opinoins aboutproduction rodmaking as opposed to hand planed, one at a time rodmaking. Inadvance, I apologize to any that this post offends, but my endeavor, as manyof you know, is to make a "living" at rodmaking, and to not view it as ahobby... As a prelude to this message, someone asked if there was a market I'm actually going to get serious for aminute... Market for cane rods... Yep, I think there is one out there, and Ithink if the market were presented with a reasonably priced cane rod builtin a production mode, by that I mean by mills that would produce consistentquality blanks, then I think the market will boom. You may be the one toprove it. You are about two years ahead of me on both the idea and themilling machine, but, like you, I don't want to push a hand plane and sell25 or so rods a year (my low in the past 5 years was 17, high was 32 rodsthis year). Just doing that many rods by hand planing is a pain in theass and doesn't allow you a whole lot of time out of the shop!First, let me clarify something... by reasonably priced, I don't meanjumping out like our old buddy Gink and trying to put a shi##y looking rodon the market for $300. If anything, that SOB helped hurt the idea ofproduction rods... The only reputable "production" rods that I can speak ofright now are Winstons and Orvis' rods. Glenn Brackett of Winston, told mea couple of years ago, that he only wants to produce about 100 rods peryear, and of course, he has a waiting list for Winston Cane Rods... I don'tknow about how many Orvis produces per year, but both of these rods sellforover $1600... Winstons rods start at $2400 and top out at $2900.. uh...that's nearly a quarter of a million dollars per year gross. Gary Howellsdid rods in a production mode (with a milling machine) and restrictedhimself to 75 rods per year atabout 1600 per rod still a nice gross income, (120 grand a year gross, notbad)... . before he quit making rods, a couple of years before he died, awaiting period for his rods was over a year. Producing that kind of number,you know that components would be CHEAP when bought or custom made inthatkind of bulk.Why such a waiting period on these rods... My opinion, they were machinemilled rods that were VERY consistent from rod to rod... ANY 7' 4wt thesemakers made, cast just like any OTHER 7'4wt they made. Unfortunately, andbeing, at least for this time a hand planer, too, I have to say that thereis NO WAY, I can hold to a zero tolerance on a set of 18 strips to make surethat every rod I make casts exactly like every other. They are close, butthey'll never be as close as my mill will make them! (If I ever get thatbastard finished).So, my opinion... If we can get a consistent, quality, desireable rod onthe market for a reasonable price ($1000 to $1600 US Dollars), then thereisa market out there ready to purchase them.Right now, I just raised my price to $1295 for a 2/2 rod. Now, If Icould find a market for even 50 rods per year at that price, and could putthem out faster and more consistent on my milling machine, then I'm lookingat being able to put my Air Force retirement check in the bank and livingoff of my rod money. I really have this (hammer me for this phrase if youwant to! LOL) "LOVE" of making rods, but I don't have a love of pushing aplane or straightening strips or presssing nodes, but right now, I HAVE todo those things... and you've made rods for quite a long time, so you knowwhat a pain in the ass those things are and how much time they take. I'dstill love making rods and probably would love it even more, if I could sawthose strips, get the nodes down, run them through my rough beveler, thenthrough the oven and straight onto a milling machine then glue em up! Theaffliction is for cane, not for unnecessary labor.Of course all that may be only a dream. I may spend untold fortunesgetting that contraption out in the garage fine tuned and still only make 25or so rods a year, but I'll damn sure have more time for fishing anddrinking beer when I get it running. OK, Bob's rant is over... happy new year!!!! Bob from jkcerise@rof.net Mon Jan 1 01:22:46 2001 f017Mja18380 Subject: Happy Attachment-Free 2001 Fellow Listers,First of all, let me say that I do enjoy and appreciate this list a lotand have learned a tremendous amount from its members. May all of youhavea happy, prosperous and rewarding New Year! BUT,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Not to be bitchy on the first day of the newmellinium, aw, the hell with it, I AM gonna bitch some!A note to those of you who are sending the .vcf attachments witheverypost,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Whoa!!!! There are a few of us out here who willprobably not ever contact you personally, nor will we visit your personalor business website and I gouroontee that you don't want my 17 year olddope-smokin', drug crazed, whore-mongerin', wild-assed nephew (and all ofhis buddies) getting hold of your phone numbers!!!! If I need to get aholtof you, believe me, I WILL find all of these things out on my own. (Notbein' a normal male, I DO know how to ask fer directions!!) With anaddress book of over three jillion business/personal contacts, the thing isgettin full. I also get tired of taking the time to jump into explorer anddelete all this crap from my hard drive every week! Personally, I'd ratherbe fishin!, I dunno 'bout you-un's!! Those of us who WOULD like to take acloser look at your lovely neices and nephews and dogs and cats and therust on the fender of your 67 Chevy, will darn well ask you for all thisinfo. AND we'll do it offlist, where we oughta!! If I want some darnedvirus from you I'll beg you for it, otherwise, please keep the protectionyou surely own, up to date just for me, will ya? I got hit with thatnavidad.exe thing nine times in one day from this list. Send me anattached photo of a rod or of that brownie you caught last week, I'd loveto see those, but as for the address attachments and the virus files, I'llask you for those if I want them as I did manage to find the reply buttonon this thing!Are we, the most persnickety and meticulous craftsmen/women of thewholeworld's fishing industry, too lazy or unknowing (read ignorant, ASKsomebody for chrissake!) so as to continue to send one another thisunwelcome junk?Ladies and gents, it is called respect! If you have any for the list yousubscribe to, show it!Now, that said, Have a Genuinely Happy New Year,,,, AFTER you upgradeyourvirus software and stop sending all of us your junk!! Let's go fishing today and start this thing off right! I'll bring thebeer! Noon sharp @ the confluence of the Frying Pan and the Roaring Fork!Please RSVP (without attachments please!!) to let me know how much beerandwhat brand to buy!! Thanks for listening, I know I've been ranting some, now I promise to shutthe hell up for a while! John from ajthramer@hotmail.com Mon Jan 1 02:12:09 2001 f018C8a19018 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 00:12:06 -0800 Mon, 01 Jan 2001 08:12:05 GMT Subject: Production Rods & etc... FILETIME=[877E4000:01C073CA] Some thoughts on the current rantfest.. I usually built 35 to 50 rods per year when I owned the auto shop and ran it full time. The rods were not 'blue collar' rods and stand up to scutiny that ALL rods have to be able to in order to pass muster for an increasingly sophisticated purchaser. The standards that were acceptable in the Golden era are NOT acceptable standards in the modern era. That is due in large part to the excellent quality available from amateurs who can afford to invest 60 hours in a rod. With that preamble out of the way(gotta love those preambles..) Is there a market- Huge! I could easily emply two more craftmen if I wanted to goback to running people instaed of machines(unfortunately I get along better with machines). This with no advertising at all and no retail sales either. Many fly shops are ready for cane rods that are priced competitively with high end plastic, and when the rods are displayed alongside each other guess which one moves? Do not assume for a moment that the customerbase is not as smart as a whip, they know value when they see it. Quantity - No doubt about it you have to be able to produce rods efficiently, this is not the same thing as 'cheesy' or 'shoddy' or 'substandard'. This is a result of setting up production in an efficient manner with consistent standards and methods. This is in a nutshell why the US is the largest and most efficient economy in the World. The end result of tracking the steps to build a rod and repeating it over and over. I didn't really hit my stride until I had built over a hundred rods, it simply takes a bit of time to learn and get the feel for every step of the process. This is not the ticket for everybody, the vast majority will prefer to make a dozen rods a year and fuss over them endlessly. This is as it should be and as it has always been. Cost - Hey! guess what? the rod buying consumer is cost sensitive. Like all consumers for any product. The market for $800 rods is larger by a factorof ten as the market for $1500 rods. Marketing 101. The trick is to make a $1200 rod and sell it for $800. Respect for your customer is paramount, if you deliver 125% they seem to know that and reward you with a respect for your craft. Ticks Me Off - That 'blue collar' crap. An excellent example of what is wrong with america. the blue collar guys make it possible to do about whatever you want to do. Punching a computer and talking about something never accoplished a single damn thing until it was put into action by the defamed blue collar guy. Pukes who gave me that attitude when I ran the shop(it was surprisingly common) were treated with the respect they deserved. To use 'blue collar' as a perjorative is simply the bloodiest stupid thing I have ever heard. What is rodmaking anyway? To make a living at this takes frugality, shrewdness, respect for your customers, and a blue collar work ethic that is in overdrive. Bevelers - I use two but still finish the strips by hand as it gives me no glue line and absolutely consistent results(read repeatability). That was a long one but I achieved these OPINIONS by virtue of doing the rodmaking thing not thinking about the rodmaking thing(refer to BC rant above). Flames - Feel free if you must, but please ground them in facts and not feeeelings and baseless opinions arrived at with no real life experience. On to my next 'life affirming' act :)A.J.Thramer_________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Jan 1 02:44:05 2001 f018i3a19429 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:44:04 +0800 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 16:44:02 +0800 Subject: Re: Fw: power fibers What Bob writes is correct, the answer for the long term is not super cheaprods but reasonably priced ones but again there is the crux of the matter.You need to want to make rods to get anything out of all this. If you makeenough to be happy (both monetarily and workwise) that's about as good asit will get.The reason is this. The US$ is too high allowing price undercutting to be aserious impediment no matter what price you set *IF* the market was toeversupport the huge volume it seems we all believe is there if only it couldbe supplied.Here is an example:I live in Australia where currently the AUSSIE$ is getting about .55c tothe US$. Now something people tend to do when thinking of forien currenciesis always convert to your own currency and see the advantage and think thecountry with the low rate has a currency that is low valued in it's owncountry also. Sometimes this is right but not always. A rod selling in theUS for $800, $1200 or $1800 would mean about the same here in Aust or NZ to my idea of the value of a dollar as long as these dollars are made inour own countrys. It's when you convert you notice a difference. It also works the other way and this is your and my for that matter'sproblem. Say Bob or AJ made and sold 30 rods per year, forget how but thequality was the usual high standard. Would you consider $800 x 30 =$US24,000 a lot of money considering the work?How about if Bob or AJ decided to ditch Nth American winters and the arcanephone system for the nice warms winter and efficiant telecomunicationsystem we have here.Those same rods would presumably still sell in the US for $800 US, that iscurrently $Aust 1454 or $1454 x 30 = $Aust 43,636 which is not tooshabby.Still want more? Move to NZ and that would be $NZ 1800 x 30 = NZ54,000andthat's pretty good though making 30 rods a year with all those fantastictrout to catch may take some doing.SA would be around 96,000 RA. You'd be wealthy there. A few years and youcould set up your own gold mine. IMHO some things are best as a cottage industry, too much action and you'dbe crushed by Orvis or someone getting rods of the same sort of quality, 20times the qty and a quarter the cost price but $100 or $200 less retail outof Asia. AJ is right to mention there is nothing wrong with Blue Collar work orrods. The low dollar we currently have has made people realise there is alot more to things than creating wealth from importing cheap and sellingdear. There does seem to be enough demand for anybody putting in theeffort but if the market ever does reach critical mass for god sake don'ttell anybody about it. Tony I'm actually going to get serious for aminute... Market for cane rods... Yep, I think there is one out there, and Ithink if the market were presented with a reasonably priced cane rod builtin a production mode, by that I mean by mills that would produce consistentquality blanks, then I think the market will boom. You may be the one toprove it. You are about two years ahead of me on both the idea and themilling machine, but, like you, I don't want to push a hand plane and sell25 or so rods a year (my low in the past 5 years was 17, high was 32 rodsthis year). Just doing that many rods by hand planing is a pain in theass and doesn't allow you a whole lot of time out of the shop!First, let me clarify something... by reasonably priced, I don't meanjumping out like our old buddy Gink and trying to put a shi##y looking rodon the market for $300. If anything, that SOB helped hurt the idea ofproduction rods... The only reputable "production" rods that I can speak ofright now are Winstons and Orvis' rods. Glenn Brackett of Winston, told mea couple of years ago, that he only wants to produce about 100 rods peryear, and of course, he has a waiting list for Winston Cane Rods... I don'tknow about how many Orvis produces per year, but both of these rods sellforover $1600... Winstons rods start at $2400 and top out at $2900.. uh...off of my rod money. I really have this (hammer me for this phrase if youwant to! LOL) "LOVE" of making rods, but I don't have a love of pushing aplane or straightening strips or presssing nodes, but right now, I HAVE todo those things... and you've made rods for quite a long time, so you knowwhat a pain in the ass those things are and how much time they take. I'dstill love making rods and probably would love it even more, if I could sawthose strips, get the nodes down, run them through my rough beveler, thenthrough the oven and straight onto a milling machine then glue em up! Theaffliction is for cane, not for unnecessary labor.Of course all that may be only a dream. I may spend untold fortunesgetting that contraption out in the garage fine tuned and still only make 25or so rods a year, but I'll damn sure have more time for fishing anddrinking beer when I get it running. OK, Bob's rant is over... happy new year!!!! Bob /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from cmj@post11.tele.dk Mon Jan 1 03:35:20 2001 f019ZJa19897 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:35:20 +0100 Subject: Sv: power fibers f019ZJa19898 That one is easy: He is dead, we're not:-)) regards,Carten ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers how come a bevelled Payne is worth slightly more that one of yours Eastkoyfly@aol.com wrote: JohnI think you are very right, that's what I meant when I saidthere is no market for cheap mass produced bamboo rods. People likethe lonecraftsman thing and to them it means hand planing. Joseph Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Jan 1 04:49:07 2001 f01An5a20557 f01An0x72784 Subject: Fly Lines - cane rods Organization: vet This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0743B.D0A5E780 Hello all When we have these discussions about line suitability, various lines are =recommended by various protagonists; the question I always want to ask, =and am going to ask now, is this - how much difference does it really =make? I know that silk is lovely to use, and it's really very authentic, and I =know that softer lines are nicer to cast than stiffer ones; and I =certainly have my preferred combinations of rod and line, but really, =when the chips are down, it doesn't seem to matter all that much. I have =just returned from a local river called the Macquarie, and after a 3/4 =hour drive to get to the river I found that I had my Payne 101 copy, =which is always in the ute (i.e. truck), but had by accident only got an =Abel 0.5 reel loaded with a weight forward 6-weight Ultra 3 line. I fished all afternoon and landed a lot of fish in the 2-3 lb class, all =on dry flies (spinners), and never once felt I was mismatched. At what distance do the members feel they catch most of their fish? Mine =are certainly at less than 40', and at those distances I feel you could =manage with just about anything at all. As long as the stress factors on =the rod are kept reasonable, while it may not be as ideal, it works. Stay well, stay happy, 2001 and always, Peter ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0743B.D0A5E780 Hello all When we have these discussions about= difference does it really make? I know that silk is lovely to use, and = and line, but really, when the chips are down, it doesn't seem to matter = that much. I have just returned from a local river called the Macquarie, = after a 3/4 hour drive to get to the river I found that I had my Payne = which is always in the ute (i.e. truck), but had by accident only got an = 0.5 reel loaded with a weight forward 6-weight Ultra 3 =line. I fished all afternoon and landed a lot = the 2-3 lb class, all on dry flies (spinners), and never once = mismatched. At what distance do the members feel= most of their fish? Mine are certainly at less than 40', and at those = I feel you could manage with just about anything at all. As long as the = factors on the rod are kept reasonable, while it may not be as ideal, it = works. always, Peter ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0743B.D0A5E780-- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Jan 1 05:08:45 2001 f01B8ha20856 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 19:08:44 +0800 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 19:08:43 +0800 Subject: Re: Fly Lines - cane rods Pete,nice to read you're doing some quality fishing. I've been stuck in front ofthis bloody machine all Christmas and new year doing my "white collar" job.I thought all this stuff about silk was a bit esoteric too until I triedone ofOlaf's on my Driggs copy at Greyling. The line just shot out in such a way youjust know it'll handle wind much better than modern lines. I'm not all thatinterested in long casts but I am interested in windage and that's the thing Ireally like about the one I just had to get.One other minor but nice thing is the feel and noise it makes as you're falsecasting to increase line or shooting. In the dark or close cover you get totell what's in the air without looking.They're a hasle at the end of day but I do like mine. Tony Hello all When we have these discussions about line suitability, various lines arerecommended by various protagonists; the question I always want to ask,andam going to ask now, is this - how much difference does it really make? I know that silk is lovely to use, and it's really very authentic, and Iknowthat softer lines are nicer to cast than stiffer ones; and I certainly havemy preferred combinations of rod and line, but really, when the chips aredown, it doesn't seem to matter all that much. I have just returned from alocal river called the Macquarie, and after a 3/4 hour drive to get to theriver I found that I had my Payne 101 copy, which is always in the ute (i.e.truck), but had by accident only got an Abel 0.5 reel loaded with a weightforward 6-weight Ultra 3 line. I fished all afternoon and landed a lot of fish in the 2-3 lb class, all ondry flies (spinners), and never once felt I was mismatched. At what distance do the members feel they catch most of their fish? Minearecertainly at less than 40', and at those distances I feel you could managewith just about anything at all. As long as the stress factors on the rodarekept reasonable, while it may not be as ideal, it works. Stay well, stay happy, 2001 and always, Peter /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from petermckean@netspace.net.au Mon Jan 1 05:14:20 2001 f01BEIa21039 f01BEDx73947; Subject: Re: Fw: power fibers Organization: vet Tony I know that I got pretty snappy the other night when I spoke about"amateurs" and "professionals" , and I am sorry for that - I guess. I stillthink that Terry needs a new dictionary, but I am not about to waste thetime of all the listmembers arguing semantics. What got right up my nose, and to be honest is still up there, is the factthat it is deemed necessary by some people, in order to support their ownpoint of view, to knock the opposition programme! I am an amateur, and I am producing about 6-8 rods per year; I think theyare pretty nice, and I fish them all. I don't want to make a living out ofit. I know that some folks do want to build rods professionally, and Irealise that economic realities dictate that they do some things that willspeed up production, to improve efficiency; sawing strips and millingsplines may be the way to go. Plastic may well be another! That's fine. I don't think I am qualified to criticise, even if I felt likeit - which I don't. But if your interest and expertise is in power tools, please don't knockthe rodmakers who prefer to do it with a bit less noise and fuss andsawdust. I really admire the rods made by Lyle Dickerson and by Jim Payne,and I don't guess that either made any rods the old-fashioned way; but whenI try to make interpretive copies of the rods of these and other masters, Ido it as a hobby, and I am not about to invest about half a retirement fundin tooling up to do quickly what I enjoy doing slowly by hand. But what I do is not any less worthy, nor the results necessarily at allinferior for that bias. I mean, your average Ferrari is not all thatinferior to a Chevy just because it is largely handmade and lacks the cachetof coming from a factory, is it? Catching any fish? All the best, Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Fw: power fibers What Bob writes is correct, the answer for the long term is not supercheaprods but reasonably priced ones but again there is the crux of the matter.You need to want to make rods to get anything out of all this. If you makeenough to be happy (both monetarily and workwise) that's about as good asit will get.The reason is this. The US$ is too high allowing price undercutting to beaserious impediment no matter what price you set *IF* the market was toeversupport the huge volume it seems we all believe is there if only it couldbe supplied.Here is an example:I live in Australia where currently the AUSSIE$ is getting about .55c tothe US$. Now something people tend to do when thinking of foriencurrenciesis always convert to your own currency and see the advantage and thinkthecountry with the low rate has a currency that is low valued in it's owncountry also. Sometimes this is right but not always. A rod selling in theUS for $800, $1200 or $1800 would mean about the same here in Aust orNZ to my idea of the value of a dollar as long as these dollars are made inour own countrys. It's when you convert you notice a difference. It also works the other way and this is your and my for that matter'sproblem. Say Bob or AJ made and sold 30 rods per year, forget how butthequality was the usual high standard. Would you consider $800 x 30 =$US24,000 a lot of money considering the work?How about if Bob or AJ decided to ditch Nth American winters and thearcanephone system for the nice warms winter and efficiant telecomunicationsystem we have here.Those same rods would presumably still sell in the US for $800 US, that iscurrently $Aust 1454 or $1454 x 30 = $Aust 43,636 which is not tooshabby.Still want more? Move to NZ and that would be $NZ 1800 x 30 = NZ54,000andthat's pretty good though making 30 rods a year with all those fantastictrout to catch may take some doing.SA would be around 96,000 RA. You'd be wealthy there. A few years andyoucould set up your own gold mine. IMHO some things are best as a cottage industry, too much action andyou'dbe crushed by Orvis or someone getting rods of the same sort of quality,20times the qty and a quarter the cost price but $100 or $200 less retailoutof Asia. AJ is right to mention there is nothing wrong with Blue Collar work orrods. The low dollar we currently have has made people realise there is alot more to things than creating wealth from importing cheap and sellingdear. There does seem to be enough demand for anybody putting in theeffort but if the market ever does reach critical mass for god sake don'ttell anybody about it. Tony I'm actually going to get serious for aminute... Market for cane rods... Yep, I think there is one out there,and Ithink if the market were presented with a reasonably priced cane rodbuiltin a production mode, by that I mean by mills that would produceconsistentquality blanks, then I think the market will boom. You may be the one toprove it. You are about two years ahead of me on both the idea and themilling machine, but, like you, I don't want to push a hand plane andsell25 or so rods a year (my low in the past 5 years was 17, high was 32rodsthis year). Just doing that many rods by hand planing is a pain in theass and doesn't allow you a whole lot of time out of the shop!First, let me clarify something... by reasonably priced, I don't meanjumping out like our old buddy Gink and trying to put a shi##y lookingrodon the market for $300. If anything, that SOB helped hurt the idea ofproduction rods... The only reputable "production" rods that I can speakofright now are Winstons and Orvis' rods. Glenn Brackett of Winston, toldmea couple of years ago, that he only wants to produce about 100 rods peryear, and of course, he has a waiting list for Winston Cane Rods... Idon'tknow about how many Orvis produces per year, but both of these rodssellforover $1600... Winstons rods start at $2400 and top out at $2900.. uh...off of my rod money. I really have this (hammer me for this phrase if youwant to! LOL) "LOVE" of making rods, but I don't have a love of pushing aplane or straightening strips or presssing nodes, but right now, I HAVEtodo those things... and you've made rods for quite a long time, so youknowwhat a pain in the ass those things are and how much time they take. I'dstill love making rods and probably would love it even more, if I couldsawthose strips, get the nodes down, run them through my rough beveler,thenthrough the oven and straight onto a milling machine then glue em up!Theaffliction is for cane, not for unnecessary labor.Of course all that may be only a dream. I may spend untold fortunesgetting that contraption out in the garage fine tuned and still only make25or so rods a year, but I'll damn sure have more time for fishing anddrinking beer when I get it running. OK, Bob's rant is over... happy new year!!!! Bob /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from horsesho@ptd.net Mon Jan 1 05:38:41 2001 f01Bcfa21472 Organization: ProLog Subject: Re: Rod Identification Help Needed - Pictures Posted on Web Joe, Is that a bakelite winding/cork check in front of the grip alongwith the butt cap. If so it's definitly Edwards. Marty Thanks to everyone that has replied to my query. At the suggestion of Darrell Lee I have taken some pictures of the rod andhave posted them on my website at http://www.direct- pest.com/rodmakerlook Darrell, if your listening the engraving on the slip ring says "Patent Dated4- 13-37". Had to get my wife to look at it since I can't see things thatsmall (I'm an old fogie) Thanks again to everyone who has responded from horsesho@ptd.net Mon Jan 1 05:52:02 2001 f01Bq1a21738 Organization: ProLog Subject: Re: power fibers What has to be kept in mind is the fact that there are literallymillions of good classic cane rods made during the last century byproduction makers such as Orvis, Thomas, Edwards, Heddon ,Granger,Leonard and others. These rods are the competition for anymodern start up production maker. Excluding the overpriced Leonard allcan be had for less than a start up maker would demand. Marty Terry,either you want to do business or build rods as a hobby (even rods sold nowand then)If you want to build rods for a bigger market than you have to findproduction methodswhich will give you a high profit. But you also have do to a lot of advertisingwhich I have not seen anyone on the cane scene doing to the same extentas the biggraphite companies. You have to create a need. A Happy New Year to all on the List Christian 31-12-2000 11:41:16, "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,hand planing was never the method used to produce rods for thecommercial market.Sure you can produce great rods by hand planing, all the guys on the listcanprove that. How do we know what sort of market there is out there forcane rodswhen we cannot supply them in a commercial quantity (see R. Nantel'sposting).Perhaps there is no market. Perhaps we are all just a bunch ofbullshitters justsitting at our computers dreaming. We honestly do not know just whatthe marketis, perhaps it could explode if the rods were out there? We will never knowunlesswe can make them commercially.I know I'll never plane another rod, and If I cannot develop an easier waythenI'm finished with it. Perhaps I do not really want to make rods any more, Icertainly get more challenge out of building bevellers than rods and canalwaysfind excuses to rebuild or modify.Terry Tony Young wrote: Arguing the toss on what a pro is and isn't is a complete waste of timeespecially when the lines a between an occupation and serious past timeareblured as are the lines between jobs are nowadays anyhow. I have no to what my job description is and my hoby interests are anymore foreg.The important issue is the outcome, the most important outcome is thecontinuity of the craft in the face of increasing blandness of prettymucheverything produced today. The really sad thing is the majority ofpeoplein an age where pretty much anybody can get pretty much anything andownmore and better stuff than kings and heads of state did from 20 yearsagomeans there really is nothing special about much of anything producedanymore. Now the requirement of this outcome is a base of consumers preparedto buyanything offered and the way to do that is advertise heavily andconvinceeverybody the latest offering is the greatest. There is no need to gothrough this on this list because presumably we all want somethingbetterin fly rods at least.The question of where are all the bamboo rods in this latest golden ageofrod makers is moot. I've got to wonder if bamboo rods ever sold ingreatnumbers would make any difference to anybody except for the makersof cheapproduction rods. People inclined to go with advertising would still dotheir "serious" fishing with graphite and the bamboo rod would gomostlyunused just in case they broke it and deep inside they'd "know" you needgraphite for the really big ones.I'm certain decent rods for a mass market could be made but it wouldbe inIndonesia or China not the US. I'm amazed it hasn't already happened.IMHO this whole issue of splitting vs sawing and grain runout is aquestionwith no answer everybody would be happy with.Again IMHO this is a follow on from the sawing vs riving of wood and hasadifferent application than bamboo rods. When you rive a piece of woodforturning for eg the block riven could be at 45 degrees for eg to theoriginal length of wood and it's setup and turned as the smaller block asopposed to sawing a length of wood straight and using the resultingblockwithout regard to grain direction. This is bad practice as failures dooccur done this way.Bamboo is different, the "grain" doesn't wander until it reaches thenodeswhich are points of confusion for the grain then continues to the nextnodein a more or less straigh line. The wandering you see during splitting areIMHO just random paths taking the line of least resistance betweennodesand not continuation of any "grain". Incidently, I'd have to see it to believe you could saw good strips fasterthan you can split them using the Bob Nunley (pro maker) method. Thestipsare also as straight as you want them split this way because of thedegreeof control you have during the process. Because there is no real grain there can be no dif between hand planedandmilled strips as far as strength goes.Milled strips are more uniform than hand planed strips can be if done inthe same time and that's the only dif.Does it matter in the end? Maybe to the maker, certainly not to thepunterbuying the rod. These guys are paying serious money for massproducedplastic, why would most care even if they knew the dif? Tony At 07:05 PM 12/29/00 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:According to my dictionary a professional is one that that makes hisliving inarts, sports etc., in which amateurs engage.The Garrison method of hand planing was never intended for full timeprofessional use. I am sure Garrison kept his day job and look at thefollowinghe had at the timeLook back over the last few years and try to remember just howmany handplaners have come and gone. Those that are dug in seem to end upprefering tosell equipment rather than concentrate on just rods.There are more guys now making cane rods than there ever was in thegoldenera,yet where are these rods? I think we are all bullshitting each other!You caninclude me in with that, Terry petermckean wrote: Terry If you mean "amateur" in the original sense of the word, which is"one wholoves", you are probably right in what you say. If you are misusingtheword, as most people do, to mean kind of inferior or using itpatronisinglyto mean "home-made" and of inferior quality, then you are justspoutingbloody rubbish! There are always more ways than one to do a given job; generallynone is"better" than another, just sometimes more suitable for a given setofcircumstances. Not everybody wants to produce rods as fast as possible; for someof usit'sa part time thing; we are "amateurs"; we love it and take time overit,quite unlike the "professionals" at places like Horrocks-Ibbotson, andinthe modern factories in China. And we can live very comfortably without the patronising bullshit,thanks! Peter----- Original Message -----From: "T. Ackland" Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 5:19 AMSubject: power fibers Just read the pseudo scientific article by Charles Neuner on millingmachines, very inaccurate!Hand planers have to split and straighten the strips because theyhaveto follow the grain, they cannot work it any other way!Professional rodmakers of the past and present using millingmachinesdid not need to follow the grain. It is a fact that rods made fromsawnstrips stay straighter than those that have been split andstraightened. Take a look at some of the classic rods incollectionsand check them out against the hand planed rods being producednow.Cane has a memory and the chances of a straightened stripstayingstraight is minimal.Just try to remember that hand planing is an amateur method ofmakingcane rods, you can butter it up with lots of good sounding "science"but.......Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from horsesho@ptd.net Mon Jan 1 05:54:42 2001 f01Bsfa21910 Organization: ProLog Subject: Re: Thomas Special "Fairy" trout rod Shawn, I think the Thomas "Fairy" is the 6'8" #3 that Jack Howells haslisted in his book. Best, Marty Hi list,A while back Dave Van Burgel graciously sent me a photo of arod hanging on the wall at the Maine State museum. The rod plaque aboveit says Thomas Special "Fairy" trout rod. The rod appears blonde andseems to have a very tiny grip.I'm not sure if you are still on here Dave or not, but if you(or anyone else here) could provide me with some details and or a taper Thanks,ShawnP.S. Happy New Year to all !!! from ingvar.cane@swipnet.se Mon Jan 1 06:23:34 2001 f01CNXa22308 +0100 Subject: the Rodmakers list This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C073F5.A2C560C0 I agree with John Cerise about what he has said about this mailing list. =Today I had recieved 68 mails and not 10 of them had very much to do =with rod making. If one will sell rods or not sell rods and the =comprasion between handplaned rods or rods milled on a computer machine =what in hell has that to do with rodmaking. That is talk about bussines = Let us talk about rodmaking and hands on heart how many of you out there =has a millingmachine for milling bamboo strips on ?And please dont tell me about millings and computers I worked in that =field allmost my whole life. I have a set of standard planingforms and a =Tom Morgan Hand Mill and I have lot of fun with both of them. Ingvar ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C073F5.A2C560C0 I agree with John Cerise about what he= about this mailing list. Today I had recieved 68 mails and not 10 of = had very much to do with rod making. If one will sell rods or not sell = the comprasion between handplaned rods or rods milled on a = what in hell has that to do with rodmaking. That is talk about bussines = rod making. Let us talkabout rodmaking and hands = ?And please dont tell me about millings = computers I worked in that field allmost my whole life. I have a set of = planingforms and a Tom Morgan Hand Mill and I have lot of fun with both = them. Ingvar ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C073F5.A2C560C0-- from dan_cooney@attglobal.net Mon Jan 1 07:21:19 2001 f01DLJa22781 +0000 Tony Spezio Subject: Quick Question -- Line conversion chart Chart for converting old "letter" line sizes to AFTMA line sizes Level Lines Old Size AFTMA CodeG L3FF L4FE L5FD L6F_ L7FC L8FB L9F Double Tapers Old Size AFTMA CodeHEH DT5FHDH DT6F_ DT7FHCH DT8FGBG DT9F Weight Forward Tapers Old Size AFTMA CodeHDF WF5F_ WF6FHCF WF7FGBF WF8FGAF WF9FGAAF WF10F Source: Cortland Company -----------------------------------------------------I found this very helpful for finding out the line weight on silk flylines. AFTMA DT WF#1 -- --#2 -- --#3 IFI IFG#4 HFH HFG#5 HEH HEG#6 HDH HDG#7 HCH HCF#8 GBG GBF#9 GAG GAF#10 G2AG G2AF#11 G3AG G3AF#12 G4AG G4AF I = 0.56mm/0.022"H = 0.63mm/0.025"G = 0.76mm/0.030"F = 0.89mm/0.035"E = 1.02mm/0.040"D = 1.14mm/0.045"C = 1.27mm"/0.050"B = 1.40mm/0.055"A = 1.52mm/0.060"2A = 1.65mm/0.066"3A = 1.78mm/0.070"4A = 1.91mm/0.073" Source: Danny Twang (Rodmakers) from CCGGLOBAL@aol.com Mon Jan 1 07:41:21 2001 f01DfKa23094 Subject: Focused Rodmakers in 2001 Rodmakers, Help ! with passion and respect for the craft of Rodmaking, Iask help with the following problems ! 1. Techniques for avoiding glue lines, preferences for glues and why ? 2. Tips and Techniques for producing really sharp Hock blades. 3. How do you heat your Dip tubes and at what temperature, Is heatingvarnish necessary ? or can you get good results thinning with mineral spirits ? 4. What are some of the best Polishing techniques you like that produce the best results ? Was Payne's secret, not in how he built his rods, but in the polishing ? 5. If you build a beveler using a router, where do you get the bits ? and what material have you found works best for the face plate ? 6. Where can one find plans for a Drying Chamber ? and what techniqueshave you used to Successfully avoid Dust ? 7. Regarding Lathes, I know larger is better, but If you are going to use smaller Lathes, would one be better served by using say a Jet wood working lathe for cork grips and reelseats and then a Taig metal working lathe for other parts ? Or are you still better off spending a little more money and buying a bigger Lathe ? 8. What is the ideal Height for planning, now I realize that all depends on the height of the person, but I am talking perspective here, what have you found is the ideal height relationship to arm, elbow, and Plane ? Thanks for all of your help ! and Good Rodmaking ! Best Regards ! Bill Campbell : e-mail : ccgglobal@aol.com from channer1@rmi.net Mon Jan 1 07:55:24 2001 f01DtOa23347 Subject: Re: Leonard 6'10" rod taper - Anybody built and or cast this rod? Darrell;Ask Ron Kusse, if anyone knows, he does.John Richard Colo wrote: Darrell, I don't think the rod has ever been listed. I have neverheard of it? Rich Darrell Lee wrote: Inquiring minds want to know Darrellwww.vfish.net from channer1@rmi.net Mon Jan 1 07:59:34 2001 f01DxXa23564 Subject: Re: Wood dye recommendation Randll;Try Garrett-Wade or Woodworkers Supply, I know they both sell anilinedyes for dyeing wood.John Randall Gregory wrote: Happy New Year in advance. I hope that all had a wonderful Christmas.I do have a question for some of you that have been tinkering with thereelseat impregnation process. I have started with reelseats and allseems well. I referred to the archives for the basics. I would nowlike to dye some of my inserts. I have been using a combination ofacetone, acrylic, and other additives to create my resin. What type ofdye would any of you recommend and what application process should Iuse? 1. Dye wood prior to impregnating or 2. Add dye to impregnatingresin. As for the posts regarding bevelers, I have one(routerbased) that I built that works very well given that you pay attentionto running each side of the strip through and that you don't try totake off too much material in one pass. I make several passes toavoid problems and to help mantain the grain. I also make sure totreat the nodes carefully and to straighten the strips. I like it. Ido have to say that I haven't rough beveled in a long time. Haven'thad a rod break yet.Thanks in advance for any advice received. Happy New Year!!! RandallR. Gregory (NW ARKIE) (I hope I didn't jinx my next rod!!!!) from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Mon Jan 1 08:13:58 2001 f01EDva23910 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... To the List,When I started making rods it was guys like A.J and Terry A that I looked up to and I still look up to A.J and always will. I am very passionate about what I do and try to do the best I can for my family, friends, and the people who buy my rods. I have been flamed by Terry on and off list on subjects ranging from being a bad husband and father to being a saucy little punk. I do not think that I know everything about rodmaking or business and manufacturing. When I said Cheesy Blue Collar, I was referring to a term that seemed to be all the rage about a year ago when describingthose $300.00 production rods. All things being fair I have seen Terry's rods and would NOT CALL THEM CHEESY at all. I apologize to the list if I offended anyone. To Terry please stop flaming me and trying to hurt my business I do the best I can with what I have.Joe and Lisa Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com from cattanac@wmis.net Mon Jan 1 08:43:21 2001 f01EhKa24726 Subject: Help needed in Minnesota????? non - rodmaking It appears as if I have been brought into a eBay scam - and sit herewondering if there is anyone on the list that lives around Mound, MN - WhatI am thinking is to have someone drive by an address so that I can describethe residence - think that if I can - I can scare the scamee into thinkingthat I know where they live sort of thing - any help would be greatlyappreciated - Please reply off list - Wayne from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Jan 1 08:53:11 2001 f01ErAa24950 Subject: Gadflies and Bevelers All,It would seem to me that we, generally, do not have a properunderstanding of the functions of borh Gadflies and Bevelers.Now, Terry, in his own clumsy, but let us hope well-meaning, way isattempting to fill the role of Gadfly on the list. Optimally, a Gadflydistracts you long enough by its bite to permit you to recognize theinsignificance of those matters over which you were obsessing. It drawsyou back to firm ground whenever you get lost in the vapors of fancy, orthe morass of crass assumptions. The Gadfly has an honorable role. Let'shope that Terry can learn the delicate bite that attracts our attentionto the tender area, rather than just inspiring us to swat the fly, andmistake any further buzzing as threatening. The best Gadfly is the onethat draws our attention to our mistakes, not to him/herself.The function of a Beveler (and Mill) is to produce strips to arepeatable pattern. This permits the operator to easily run off extrastrips to account for QA needs. I'm sure in Payne's shop the stove waskept warm with splintered strips that didn't meet his standards. Mosthandplaners have such an investment in each strip (and a bizarrefixation with getting the rod from a single culm) that they are veryreluctant to reject a strip. Further, I speculate that most rods made ona beveler cannot be faithfuly reproduced by handplaning. The planingform cannot meet the sudden, subtle changes possible with a beveler.Just for fun, measure a Payne every inch, then try and set your forms tothat.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ See Terry, use the wrist. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Jan 1 08:53:46 2001 f01Eria25053 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:53:43 +0800 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:53:41 +0800 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... Crikey Joe lighten up. It's like Peter just wrote there are a lot of waysof making rods and nobody has the last say on how you have to do it. I meanit's not like there are a certain number of people allowed to make thethings and if you don't toe the line you're out of here and somebody'schafing at the bit to take your place. Do good work in any way you see fitand everybody's happy and if not who cares?Don't worry about Terry flaming you either, I'm reminded of a characterwho's name I forget from the "Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy" sagas. Thischaracter made it the goal of his life to cruise the galaxy and personallyinsult every inhabitant alphabetically.When asked if he realized the sheer enormity and the ultimate futility ofhis task his reply was "A man can dream can't he?"I guess Terry's about half way though this list but don't there arethousands of others to go. Tony At 09:13 AM 1/1/01 -0500, Eastkoyfly@aol.com wrote:To the List,When I started making rods it was guys like A.J and Terry Athat I looked up to and I still look up to A.J and always will. I am verypassionate about what I do and try to do the best I can for my family, friends, and the people who buy my rods. I have been flamed by Terry on and off list on subjects ranging from being a bad husband and father to being a saucy little punk. I do not think that I know everything about rodmaking or business and manufacturing. When I said Cheesy Blue Collar, I was referring to a termthat seemed to be all the rage about a year ago when describingthose $300.00 production rods. All things being fair I have seen Terry'srods and would NOT CALL THEM CHEESY at all. I apologize to the list if I offended anyone. To Terry please stop flaming me and trying to hurt my business Ido the best I can with what I have.Joe and Lisa Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from channer1@rmi.net Mon Jan 1 08:57:21 2001 f01EvLa25353 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... A.J.;Glad you are doing so well and that you are able to make a living atit.Us bumbling amateurs tend to forget about guys like you and WaltCarpenter, Ron Kusse, Bob Taylor, the Jenkins, Homer Jennings,BobSummers and the rest who have been making rods the old fashioned way(bymachine) for so long.Maybe we should call this the Amateur and HelpfullProfessional Rodmakers Listserve, then Terry won't rant at us forstumbling along in our own pitiful handplaning ways. Terry, you sholdstart up a list and get the "real guys" to join it and then you candiscuss how to really make bamboo fly rods. Oops, I forgot, except forA.J.,they are all "old school" and won't talk about it with thecompetition.John from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Jan 1 09:12:23 2001 f01FCNa25731 Subject: A friend in need List, I was talking via e-mail to our friend Ray Gould over the past couple of days and he informed me of some bad news. It seems his son's daughter Kirsten Gould who is 12 years old has a very rare form of cancer called Ewings Sarcoma. This tumor is located in her head behind one of her sinuses. Like Ray told me kids are supposed to get colds and measles and stuff like that not terrible diseases like cancer. I am asking you guys here on the list to pray for Ray's granddaughter to get better and to also pray for Ray and the rest of the family in this time of need. Most of us I think are fathers and some of us grandfathers and can identify with what the family must be going through in this situation. I hope that you all can take the time to remember Kirsten, Ray , and the rest of the family and say at least one prayer. Prayer works guys I know I have seen it and so have some of you.Bret from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Jan 1 09:13:51 2001 f01FDpa25945 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... Ok ok, blame me.I am just a blue collar Joe that comes from an era where honesty was a littlemore common than it is now where you can be whatever you want when yousit at akeyboard!I am really, really sorry Joe, I seem to be able to get on with folk in the realworld!Terry Eastkoyfly@aol.com wrote: To the List,When I started making rods it was guys like A.J and Terry A that Ilooked up to and I still look up to A.J and always will. I am very passionateabout what I do and try to do the best I can for my family, friends, and thepeople who buy my rods. I have been flamed by Terry on and off list onsubjects ranging from being a bad husband and father to being a saucylittlepunk. I do not think that I know everything about rodmaking or business andmanufacturing. When I said Cheesy Blue Collar, I was referring to a termthatseemed to be all the rage about a year ago when describingthose $300.00 production rods. All things being fair I have seen Terry'srodsand would NOT CALL THEM CHEESY at all. I apologize to the list if I offendedanyone. To Terry please stop flaming me and trying to hurt my business Idothe best I can with what I have.Joe and Lisa Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Jan 1 09:17:31 2001 f01FHUa26205 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 11:17:22 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Help needed in Minnesota????? non - rodmaking Wayne,best of luck to ya! Go get the bastard! I got burned over a yearago for $130 for a book which I never received and never got any moneyreturned.I'm just waiting for the day the military sends me down to Coloradoon temporary duty so I can go pay the loser a visit!! The whole thing hassoured me on E bay!Shawn Wayne Cattanach wrote: It appears as if I have been brought into a eBay scam - and sit herewondering if there is anyone on the list that lives around Mound, MN - WhatI am thinking is to have someone drive by an address so that I can describethe residence - think that if I can - I can scare the scamee into thinkingthat I know where they live sort of thing - any help would be greatlyappreciated - Please reply off list - Wayne from steve@hamiltonrods.com Mon Jan 1 09:18:59 2001 f01FIxa26411 Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) Subject: Re: power fibers Terry wrote:I only hope Joe, that you tell your customers that you have only beenmaking rods cheese.Saucy little punk So, Terry, is that what it's come to? You've resorted to challenging someoneelse's abilities and then calling him a "saucy little punk" because hedoesn't agree with your opinion? I am convinced that you are actually GeorgeGehrke in disguise and nothing you can say will change my mind. The shoecertainly fits. How long are you going to spew this self-serving dribblebefore you actually put your money where your mouth is and deliver theworldthe production line you think it so badly needs? Three years? Four years?Five years? Until you're actually selling rods built by your little Ronco MillingMachine, you sir are nothing but a hobbiest and an amateur of the worst kindbecause you criticize those who are actually doing something rather thanonly talking about it. I suggest you reserve judgement of others until thetime comes that you're really a so-called professional. A time which, in myopinion, will never come. That's all for me on the topic. Sorry to the rest of the list, but I thoughtit had to be said. --Steve from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Jan 1 09:27:04 2001 f01FR3a26749 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... John,you know me, I come on the list and I chuck the same old lure out and itworks every time, I don"t know why it just does?Perhaps there could be another thread here? Terry channer wrote: A.J.;Glad you are doing so well and that you are able to make a living atit.Us bumbling amateurs tend to forget about guys like you and WaltCarpenter, Ron Kusse, Bob Taylor, the Jenkins, Homer Jennings,BobSummers and the rest who have been making rods the old fashionedway(bymachine) for so long.Maybe we should call this the Amateur and HelpfullProfessional Rodmakers Listserve, then Terry won't rant at us forstumbling along in our own pitiful handplaning ways. Terry, you sholdstart up a list and get the "real guys" to join it and then you candiscuss how to really make bamboo fly rods. Oops, I forgot, except forA.J.,they are all "old school" and won't talk about it with thecompetition.John from nobler@satx.rr.com Mon Jan 1 09:32:59 2001 be forged)) f01FWwa27077 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:27:31 -0600 Subject: Re: rod refinishing Regardless, if the old varnish is badly age checkered, I've used Citristrip, from Home Depot, to remove it, with excellent results. It's mild, but at themost, 2 applications does a great job, with no damage to the cane. GMA from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Mon Jan 1 09:38:28 2001 f01FcQa27358 Subject: Re: Rod Identification Help Needed - Pictures Posted on Web Marty: It does appear to be a bakelit winding/cork check. Thanks for theinformation. Of course my friend is going to want to know a value of the rod. Do youhave any estimation of the value? Joe ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Rod Identification Help Needed - Pictures Posted on Web Joe, Is that a bakelite winding/cork check in front of the grip alongwith the butt cap. If so it's definitly Edwards. Marty Thanks to everyone that has replied to my query. At the suggestion of Darrell Lee I have taken some pictures of the rodandhave posted them on my website at http://www.direct- pest.com/rodmakerlook Rods". Darrell, if your listening the engraving on the slip ring says "PatentDated4- 13-37". Had to get my wife to look at it since I can't see thingsthatsmall (I'm an old fogie) Thanks again to everyone who has responded from nobler@satx.rr.com Mon Jan 1 09:40:42 2001 be forged)) f01Fefa27591 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:35:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Quick Question. As I recall, a 9 was an "A", and a 10 was a "AA". Tony, are you still frozenin ? GMA from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Jan 1 09:55:01 2001 f01Ft0a28014 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Milling machines vs. bevellers --------------41606A02DF0D6BB2AD80CC8A As much as I hate to add to this fray...... I originally thoughtTerry was talking about bevellers (as in rough bevellers) not aboutfinish bevellers (as in milling machines). With each post I get adifferent feel and in some cases I think squabbles are going on abouttwo different things.I may be wrong but, I think that the use of the two and the effectthey each have on the finished product are two completely differentmatters??As far as the flaming that's going on, I know it's not nice to beon the receiving end (as I have been before),and I don't agree with it.I think I see what Terry is choking on here (not saying I agree) butonce again, he is being "subtle as a sledgehammer to the face".Terry, I know you are in Quebec, and that your background is intool and die(??), by any chance are you Scottish or British?? Nothingimplied, just curious?Joe, I have never actually met you or cast one of your rods, but from what I have SEEN and HEARD they are something you can be proud of!Especially if you have only been at it a short time, I know how hard itcan be starting off (as do most of us here). I think that most methodsof building serve a purpose for different people and that no oneindividuals way is more right than another person's as long as thatperson is willing to accept the consequences of those actions (talkingmostly from a selling perspective there). Rods have been made alldifferent ways for ages, some good some bad,Shawn --------------41606A02DF0D6BB2AD80CC8A originally thought Terry was talking about bevellers (as in rough bevellers)not about finish bevellers (as in milling machines). With each post I geta different feel and in some cases I think squabbles are going on abouttwo different things. the two and the effect they each have on the finished product are twocompletelydifferent matters?? it's not nice to be on the receiving end (as I have been before),and Idon't agree with it. I think I see what Terry is choking on here (not sayingI agree) but once again, he is being "subtle as a sledgehammer to the face". that your background is in tool and die(??), by any chance are you Scottishor British?? Nothing implied, just curious? cast one of your rods, but from what I have SEEN andHEARDthey are something you can be proud of! Especially if you have only beenat it a short time, I know how hard it can be starting off (as do most another person's as long as that person is willing to accept the consequencesof those actions (talking mostly from a selling perspective there). Rodshave been made all different ways for ages, some good some bad, Shawn --------------41606A02DF0D6BB2AD80CC8A-- from Bambootom@aol.com Mon Jan 1 11:29:47 2001 f01HTka28792 Subject: Re: Gadflies and Bevelers One aspect of milling machines (and bevelers too) in regards to reproducing tapers on planing forms is that many of the patterns used in these machines are on different centers, and the action breaks won't end up in a strip dimensioned on a planing form. I know that the later Leonards were done on three inch centers, and I am pretty sure that Thomas and Thomas does the same. On these rods, I take micrometer readings on the threes, and try to set the forms as close to this as possible, but something is lost in the translation. If any one else knows about prominent rodmakers methods to this, kindly post to the group. Tom McDonnell from goodaple@tcac.net Mon Jan 1 11:32:20 2001 f01HWJa28997 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license1dc0b39e31881b14e43eebad2dae5270) Subject: RE: Wood DYE Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C073E7.1B0F48C0 Bob and John, thanks for your replies. Bob, Spavinaw Huh? If we could =get a break from this weather I will be glad to hook up and show you =some nice holes on that creek. The fish are getting bigger due to almost =nonexistent pressure.That is one of those creeks that you don't fish alot because you don't =want people to see your car by the road. Access is mostly private but I =do have a farm that I have permission to cross. How's the ice down your =way. We still have about 2 inches on everything. Back to the shop as =soon as it warms up. Thanks Again and Happppppeeee New Year. Randall R. =Gregory(NW ARKIE) PS. I think I'll fire up the mill today. Just joking. ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C073E7.1B0F48C0 Bob and John, thanks for your replies. = Spavinaw Huh? If we could get a break from this weather I will be glad = up and show you some nice holes on that creek. The fish are getting = to almost nonexistent pressure.That is one of those creeks that you = alot because you don't want people to see your car by the road. Access = private but I do have a farm that I have permission to cross. How's the = your way. We still have about 2 inches on everything. Back to the shop = = joking. ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C073E7.1B0F48C0-- from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Jan 1 11:41:32 2001 f01HfVa29281 Subject: Re: Focused Rodmakers in 2001 In a message dated 1/1/1 1:41:55 PM, CCGGLOBAL@aol.com writes: Bill - I am going to take a whack at answering this one. By far, the easiest and fastest way is to use the leather wheel method. I am pasting in the text of my article a few years ago in "The Planing form". The setup is a bit different now, since i made a portable unit. A photo is on Chris Bogart's web site in the tools section of rodmaking classes.http://www.shentel.net/canerod/I now use a honing compound from Woodcraft for most sharpening instead ofthe diamond paste. $20 gets you a lifetime supply. I haven't used a bench stone since I set this rig up. You can get the blades very sharp in less than a minute. It's a huge time saver. Running the wheel at higher speeds seems to be no problem also. Here is an inexpensive way to sharpen plane blades that is quick and easy to use. I am indebted to George Barnes, who inspired me to try this. Basically, the setup is a leather covered wheel, onto which a diamond lapping compound has been rubbed. Take a piece of 2 X 6 lumber and bandsaw a 5 3/4 inch circle. You now have a 5 3/4 x 1 1/2 disc. Drill a suitable hole in the center and true up the OD on a lathe. If you don't have a lathe you could also true up by mounting the disc on pillow blocks and holding a sanding block against it.Cut a 1 1/2 inch wide belt out of 1/8 inch hard leather and glue it to the OD of the disc. I used contact cement, which worked fine. The disc is now 6 inch diameter, same as most grinding wheels. Mount the disc on pillow blocks over a bench and drive with an electric motor. I use a salvaged appliance motor which runs at 1250 rpm. This is probably too fast, I would guess somewhere under 1000 is better with a wooden wheel. For a tool rest I simply clamped a block to the table top in such a way that the proper angle on the blade is maintained.The Diamond lapping compound may not be available locally. Try Travers Tool ( 1-800-221-0270 ) in NY. The stuff comes in different grits. I have used the 4-8 micron size with great results. I have some lighter grits also, but have not seen fit to use them so far. Expect to pay about $ 20.00 for 5 grams, which should last for a while. To use, squeeze some compound onyour finger and spread a thin coat on the leather. You will be amazed at the highly polished, ultra sharp edge which is quickly produced. from dickay@alltel.net Mon Jan 1 12:11:53 2001 f01IBqa29721 srv.alltel.net Mon, 1 Jan 2001 12:11:52 -0600 Subject: Re: power fibers Richard, You have to understand that Terry is the resident list curmudgeon.He pops in every now and then to stir things up and usually several listmembers raise to his bait. Ignore him long enough and he will go away for awhile only to appear again in several months to try and stir things upagain. If you go back in the archives, you can find several places where he hasdone this same thing. As I understand it, he is currently employed and is looking at rodmaking asa way of supplementing his retirement when and if he retires. Apparently heis not sure that he can live on his pension. Thus, he is trying to build abeveler/mill that will allow him to produce finishable strips in one pass.This, he feels will allow him to produce rods at a low cost so that he canmass market them. He feels that mass production is the only way toproducerods. He offers as evidence the mass produced Graphite sticks out there. I just read his posts and the replies for the laughs that I get from them.Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers Here I am, confused again. If a rod is made of quality cane andcomponents, and made to a good set of measurements, and shows adetailedfinish what difference does it make how it got to that state? If it is amatter of price the material cost is pretty much the same for everyone. Itwould seem it is the time element that would vary cost the most. Qualitytakes time and will show up quite easily in appearance and function. or fishing a rod? Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message -----From: Cc: ; ;; Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 3:42 PMSubject: Re: power fibers TerryIt is not bevellers that stick in my throat, in fact I'vebeenlooking into them to help speed things up a bit. It is using them to putouta cheesy ("blue collar") rod that is not up to snuff, that sticks in mythroat.Joseph A Perrigo II www.geneseevalleyrods.com from FlyfishT@aol.com Mon Jan 1 12:36:04 2001 f01Ia3a00125 Subject: Re: Focused Rodmakers in 2001 Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Hi Tom,I saw your leather wheel set at the roscoe gathering . A couple weeks ago i made one,glad i did a few seconds and have a mirror edge. I use the yellow dia. paste from M. S . C. and just touch it up each time if i don't hit the form and nick the blades up. When i do i go to the stone then the leather wheel for final finish. My question which paste do you use to produce the thousand grit burr edge to remove the nicks in the blade prior to the final finish. Thought i would ask to save time and $. Thanks much ,Tom N from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Jan 1 12:51:31 2001 f01IpUa00469 VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: Production Rods & etc... sophisticated purchaser. The standards that were acceptablein the Goldenera are NOT acceptable standards in the modern era. This is an excellent post, A.J. I think you've said it all in a very clearfashion. Richard from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Jan 1 13:06:48 2001 f01J6la00826 VL-MS-MR002.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: power fibers Ignore him long enough and he will go away for awhile only to appear again in several months to try and stir things upagain. We can choose to ignore Terry but a better idea would be to ask himquestions about building bamboo rods. He has a wealth of knowledge aboutthe subject. Without the veteran rod builders, this list would be largelyjust be a social gathering of people with common interests. Rather thanwait for certain list members to leave because they may have strongviewpoints on certain subjects, we should value their posts because theyshow that alternate methods and rod building philosophies exist. Richard from darrell@rockclimbing.org Mon Jan 1 13:07:46 2001 f01J7ja00998 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) Subject: RE: Leonard 6'10" rod taper - Anybody built and or cast this rod? The reason I asked about this taper was because it is in the taper archiveof the Rodmakers site... so I thought some may have built this taper... Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Leonard 6'10" rod taper - Anybody built and or cast thisrod? Darrell;Ask Ron Kusse, if anyone knows, he does.John Richard Colo wrote: Darrell, I don't think the rod has ever been listed. I have neverheard of it? Rich Darrell Lee wrote: Inquiring minds want to know Darrellwww.vfish.net from HeplerSail@aol.com Mon Jan 1 13:30:01 2001 f01JU0a01376 Subject: unsubscribe please unsubscribe from jfoster@gte.net Mon Jan 1 14:01:34 2001 f01K1Xa01871 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... A.J., it seems like you're getting revved-up for an ISO certification. Has anyone ever been able to quantify the truth of power fibers, Chrisno nodes, andTerrance (Powell) and others with their run out, etc.seem to be able tomake and sell quality rods without any consideration for the path of thefiber.is it important or even desirable to have straight fiber? is there atest ?I was talking to Press Powell last month and he voiced a concern that weamateurs were potentially damaging our rods by heating and pressingnodes. I'm sure we all have good thoughts for him also.is this art, or are there concrete repeatable targets to strive for? jerry ps Ingvarthat was the one i was refering to. from Canerods@aol.com Mon Jan 1 14:02:23 2001 f01K2Ma02011 Subject: Re: Fw: power fibers --part1_22.ff33952.27823c3e_boundary In a message dated 1/1/01 12:44:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, avyoung@iinet.net.au writes: Those same rods would presumably still sell in the US for $800 US, that iscurrently $Aust 1454 or $1454 x 30 = $Aust 43,636 which is not tooshabby.Still want more? Move to NZ and that would be $NZ 1800 x 30 = NZ54,000andthat's pretty good though making 30 rods a year with all those fantastictrout to catch may take some doing.SA would be around 96,000 RA. You'd be wealthy there. A few years andyoucould set up your own gold mine. Which is why China is the best place to make rods. $24K (US) would be a town's income! Plus they could buy bamboo at a fraction of our cost. Don --part1_22.ff33952.27823c3e_boundary In a message dated1/1/01 12:44:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, avyoung@iinet.net.auwrites: Those samerods would presumably still sell in the US for $800 US, that iscurrently $Aust 1454 or $1454 x 30 = $Aust 43,636 which is not tooshabby.Still want more? Move to NZ and that would be $NZ 1800 x 30 =NZ54,000 andthat's pretty good though making 30 rods a year with all thosefantastictrout to catch may take some doing.SA would be around 96,000 RA. You'd be wealthy there. A few years andyoucould set up your own gold mine. Which is why China is the best place to make rods. $24K (US) would be atown's income! Plus they could buy bamboo at a fraction of our cost. Don --part1_22.ff33952.27823c3e_boundary-- from stuart.rod@gmx.de Mon Jan 1 14:15:19 2001 f01KFIa02401 ?And please dont tell me about millings = computers I worked in that field allmost my whole life. I have a set of = planingforms and a Tom Morgan Hand Mill and I have lot of fun with both = them. Ingvar ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C073F5.A2C560C0-- from dan_cooney@attglobal.net Mon Jan 1 07:21:19 2001 f01DLJa22781 +0000 Tony Spezio Subject: Quick Question -- Line conversion chart Chart for converting old "letter" line sizes to AFTMA line sizes Level Lines Old Size AFTMA CodeG L3FF L4FE L5FD L6F_ L7FC L8FB L9F Double Tapers Old Size AFTMA CodeHEH DT5FHDH DT6F_ DT7FHCH DT8FGBG DT9F Weight Forward Tapers Old Size AFTMA CodeHDF WF5F_ WF6FHCF WF7FGBF WF8FGAF WF9FGAAF WF10F Source: Cortland Company -----------------------------------------------------I found this very helpful for finding out the line weight on silk flylines. AFTMA DT WF#1 -- --#2 -- --#3 IFI IFG#4 HFH HFG#5 HEH HEG#6 HDH HDG#7 HCH HCF#8 GBG GBF#9 GAG GAF#10 G2AG G2AF#11 G3AG G3AF#12 G4AG G4AF I = 0.56mm/0.022"H = 0.63mm/0.025"G = 0.76mm/0.030"F = 0.89mm/0.035"E = 1.02mm/0.040"D = 1.14mm/0.045"C = 1.27mm"/0.050"B = 1.40mm/0.055"A = 1.52mm/0.060"2A = 1.65mm/0.066"3A = 1.78mm/0.070"4A = 1.91mm/0.073" Source: Danny Twang (Rodmakers) from CCGGLOBAL@aol.com Mon Jan 1 07:41:21 2001 f01DfKa23094 Subject: Focused Rodmakers in 2001 Rodmakers, Help ! with passion and respect for the craft of Rodmaking, Iask help with the following problems ! 1. Techniques for avoiding glue lines, preferences for glues and why ? 2. Tips and Techniques for producing really sharp Hock blades. 3. How do you heat your Dip tubes and at what temperature, Is heatingvarnish necessary ? or can you get good results thinning with mineral spirits ? 4. What are some of the best Polishing techniques you like that produce the best results ? Was Payne's secret, not in how he built his rods, but in the polishing ? 5. If you build a beveler using a router, where do you get the bits ? and what material have you found works best for the face plate ? 6. Where can one find plans for a Drying Chamber ? and what techniqueshave you used to Successfully avoid Dust ? 7. Regarding Lathes, I know larger is better, but If you are going to use smaller Lathes, would one be better served by using say a Jet wood working lathe for cork grips and reelseats and then a Taig metal working lathe for other parts ? Or are you still better off spending a little more money and buying a bigger Lathe ? 8. What is the ideal Height for planning, now I realize that all depends on the height of the person, but I am talking perspective here, what have you found is the ideal height relationship to arm, elbow, and Plane ? Thanks for all of your help ! and Good Rodmaking ! Best Regards ! Bill Campbell : e-mail : ccgglobal@aol.com from channer1@rmi.net Mon Jan 1 07:55:24 2001 f01DtOa23347 Subject: Re: Leonard 6'10" rod taper - Anybody built and or cast this rod? Darrell;Ask Ron Kusse, if anyone knows, he does.John Richard Colo wrote: Darrell, I don't think the rod has ever been listed. I have neverheard of it? Rich Darrell Lee wrote: Inquiring minds want to know Darrellwww.vfish.net from channer1@rmi.net Mon Jan 1 07:59:34 2001 f01DxXa23564 Subject: Re: Wood dye recommendation Randll;Try Garrett-Wade or Woodworkers Supply, I know they both sell anilinedyes for dyeing wood.John Randall Gregory wrote: Happy New Year in advance. I hope that all had a wonderful Christmas.I do have a question for some of you that have been tinkering with thereelseat impregnation process. I have started with reelseats and allseems well. I referred to the archives for the basics. I would nowlike to dye some of my inserts. I have been using a combination ofacetone, acrylic, and other additives to create my resin. What type ofdye would any of you recommend and what application process should Iuse? 1. Dye wood prior to impregnating or 2. Add dye to impregnatingresin. As for the posts regarding bevelers, I have one(routerbased) that I built that works very well given that you pay attentionto running each side of the strip through and that you don't try totake off too much material in one pass. I make several passes toavoid problems and to help mantain the grain. I also make sure totreat the nodes carefully and to straighten the strips. I like it. Ido have to say that I haven't rough beveled in a long time. Haven'thad a rod break yet.Thanks in advance for any advice received. Happy New Year!!! RandallR. Gregory (NW ARKIE) (I hope I didn't jinx my next rod!!!!) from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Mon Jan 1 08:13:58 2001 f01EDva23910 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... To the List,When I started making rods it was guys like A.J and Terry A that I looked up to and I still look up to A.J and always will. I am very passionate about what I do and try to do the best I can for my family, friends, and the people who buy my rods. I have been flamed by Terry on and off list on subjects ranging from being a bad husband and father to being a saucy little punk. I do not think that I know everything about rodmaking or business and manufacturing. When I said Cheesy Blue Collar, I was referring to a term that seemed to be all the rage about a year ago when describingthose $300.00 production rods. All things being fair I have seen Terry's rods and would NOT CALL THEM CHEESY at all. I apologize to the list if I offended anyone. To Terry please stop flaming me and trying to hurt my business I do the best I can with what I have.Joe and Lisa Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com from cattanac@wmis.net Mon Jan 1 08:43:21 2001 f01EhKa24726 Subject: Help needed in Minnesota????? non - rodmaking It appears as if I have been brought into a eBay scam - and sit herewondering if there is anyone on the list that lives around Mound, MN - WhatI am thinking is to have someone drive by an address so that I can describethe residence - think that if I can - I can scare the scamee into thinkingthat I know where they live sort of thing - any help would be greatlyappreciated - Please reply off list - Wayne from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Jan 1 08:53:11 2001 f01ErAa24950 Subject: Gadflies and Bevelers All,It would seem to me that we, generally, do not have a properunderstanding of the functions of borh Gadflies and Bevelers.Now, Terry, in his own clumsy, but let us hope well-meaning, way isattempting to fill the role of Gadfly on the list. Optimally, a Gadflydistracts you long enough by its bite to permit you to recognize theinsignificance of those matters over which you were obsessing. It drawsyou back to firm ground whenever you get lost in the vapors of fancy, orthe morass of crass assumptions. The Gadfly has an honorable role. Let'shope that Terry can learn the delicate bite that attracts our attentionto the tender area, rather than just inspiring us to swat the fly, andmistake any further buzzing as threatening. The best Gadfly is the onethat draws our attention to our mistakes, not to him/herself.The function of a Beveler (and Mill) is to produce strips to arepeatable pattern. This permits the operator to easily run off extrastrips to account for QA needs. I'm sure in Payne's shop the stove waskept warm with splintered strips that didn't meet his standards. Mosthandplaners have such an investment in each strip (and a bizarrefixation with getting the rod from a single culm) that they are veryreluctant to reject a strip. Further, I speculate that most rods made ona beveler cannot be faithfuly reproduced by handplaning. The planingform cannot meet the sudden, subtle changes possible with a beveler.Just for fun, measure a Payne every inch, then try and set your forms tothat.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ See Terry, use the wrist. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Jan 1 08:53:46 2001 f01Eria25053 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:53:43 +0800 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 22:53:41 +0800 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... Crikey Joe lighten up. It's like Peter just wrote there are a lot of waysof making rods and nobody has the last say on how you have to do it. I meanit's not like there are a certain number of people allowed to make thethings and if you don't toe the line you're out of here and somebody'schafing at the bit to take your place. Do good work in any way you see fitand everybody's happy and if not who cares?Don't worry about Terry flaming you either, I'm reminded of a characterwho's name I forget from the "Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy" sagas. Thischaracter made it the goal of his life to cruise the galaxy and personallyinsult every inhabitant alphabetically.When asked if he realized the sheer enormity and the ultimate futility ofhis task his reply was "A man can dream can't he?"I guess Terry's about half way though this list but don't there arethousands of others to go. Tony At 09:13 AM 1/1/01 -0500, Eastkoyfly@aol.com wrote:To the List,When I started making rods it was guys like A.J and Terry Athat I looked up to and I still look up to A.J and always will. I am verypassionate about what I do and try to do the best I can for my family, friends, and the people who buy my rods. I have been flamed by Terry on and off list on subjects ranging from being a bad husband and father to being a saucy little punk. I do not think that I know everything about rodmaking or business and manufacturing. When I said Cheesy Blue Collar, I was referring to a termthat seemed to be all the rage about a year ago when describingthose $300.00 production rods. All things being fair I have seen Terry'srods and would NOT CALL THEM CHEESY at all. I apologize to the list if I offended anyone. To Terry please stop flaming me and trying to hurt my business Ido the best I can with what I have.Joe and Lisa Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from channer1@rmi.net Mon Jan 1 08:57:21 2001 f01EvLa25353 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... A.J.;Glad you are doing so well and that you are able to make a living atit.Us bumbling amateurs tend to forget about guys like you and WaltCarpenter, Ron Kusse, Bob Taylor, the Jenkins, Homer Jennings,BobSummers and the rest who have been making rods the old fashioned way(bymachine) for so long.Maybe we should call this the Amateur and HelpfullProfessional Rodmakers Listserve, then Terry won't rant at us forstumbling along in our own pitiful handplaning ways. Terry, you sholdstart up a list and get the "real guys" to join it and then you candiscuss how to really make bamboo fly rods. Oops, I forgot, except forA.J.,they are all "old school" and won't talk about it with thecompetition.John from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Jan 1 09:12:23 2001 f01FCNa25731 Subject: A friend in need List, I was talking via e-mail to our friend Ray Gould over the past couple of days and he informed me of some bad news. It seems his son's daughter Kirsten Gould who is 12 years old has a very rare form of cancer called Ewings Sarcoma. This tumor is located in her head behind one of her sinuses. Like Ray told me kids are supposed to get colds and measles and stuff like that not terrible diseases like cancer. I am asking you guys here on the list to pray for Ray's granddaughter to get better and to also pray for Ray and the rest of the family in this time of need. Most of us I think are fathers and some of us grandfathers and can identify with what the family must be going through in this situation. I hope that you all can take the time to remember Kirsten, Ray , and the rest of the family and say at least one prayer. Prayer works guys I know I have seen it and so have some of you.Bret from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Jan 1 09:13:51 2001 f01FDpa25945 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... Ok ok, blame me.I am just a blue collar Joe that comes from an era where honesty was a littlemore common than it is now where you can be whatever you want when yousit at akeyboard!I am really, really sorry Joe, I seem to be able to get on with folk in the realworld!Terry Eastkoyfly@aol.com wrote: To the List,When I started making rods it was guys like A.J and Terry A that Ilooked up to and I still look up to A.J and always will. I am very passionateabout what I do and try to do the best I can for my family, friends, and thepeople who buy my rods. I have been flamed by Terry on and off list onsubjects ranging from being a bad husband and father to being a saucylittlepunk. I do not think that I know everything about rodmaking or business andmanufacturing. When I said Cheesy Blue Collar, I was referring to a termthatseemed to be all the rage about a year ago when describingthose $300.00 production rods. All things being fair I have seen Terry'srodsand would NOT CALL THEM CHEESY at all. I apologize to the list if I offendedanyone. To Terry please stop flaming me and trying to hurt my business Idothe best I can with what I have.Joe and Lisa Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Jan 1 09:17:31 2001 f01FHUa26205 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 11:17:22 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Help needed in Minnesota????? non - rodmaking Wayne,best of luck to ya! Go get the bastard! I got burned over a yearago for $130 for a book which I never received and never got any moneyreturned.I'm just waiting for the day the military sends me down to Coloradoon temporary duty so I can go pay the loser a visit!! The whole thing hassoured me on E bay!Shawn Wayne Cattanach wrote: It appears as if I have been brought into a eBay scam - and sit herewondering if there is anyone on the list that lives around Mound, MN - WhatI am thinking is to have someone drive by an address so that I can describethe residence - think that if I can - I can scare the scamee into thinkingthat I know where they live sort of thing - any help would be greatlyappreciated - Please reply off list - Wayne from steve@hamiltonrods.com Mon Jan 1 09:18:59 2001 f01FIxa26411 Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) Subject: Re: power fibers Terry wrote:I only hope Joe, that you tell your customers that you have only beenmaking rods cheese.Saucy little punk So, Terry, is that what it's come to? You've resorted to challenging someoneelse's abilities and then calling him a "saucy little punk" because hedoesn't agree with your opinion? I am convinced that you are actually GeorgeGehrke in disguise and nothing you can say will change my mind. The shoecertainly fits. How long are you going to spew this self-serving dribblebefore you actually put your money where your mouth is and deliver theworldthe production line you think it so badly needs? Three years? Four years?Five years? Until you're actually selling rods built by your little Ronco MillingMachine, you sir are nothing but a hobbiest and an amateur of the worst kindbecause you criticize those who are actually doing something rather thanonly talking about it. I suggest you reserve judgement of others until thetime comes that you're really a so-called professional. A time which, in myopinion, will never come. That's all for me on the topic. Sorry to the rest of the list, but I thoughtit had to be said. --Steve from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Jan 1 09:27:04 2001 f01FR3a26749 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... John,you know me, I come on the list and I chuck the same old lure out and itworks every time, I don"t know why it just does?Perhaps there could be another thread here? Terry channer wrote: A.J.;Glad you are doing so well and that you are able to make a living atit.Us bumbling amateurs tend to forget about guys like you and WaltCarpenter, Ron Kusse, Bob Taylor, the Jenkins, Homer Jennings,BobSummers and the rest who have been making rods the old fashionedway(bymachine) for so long.Maybe we should call this the Amateur and HelpfullProfessional Rodmakers Listserve, then Terry won't rant at us forstumbling along in our own pitiful handplaning ways. Terry, you sholdstart up a list and get the "real guys" to join it and then you candiscuss how to really make bamboo fly rods. Oops, I forgot, except forA.J.,they are all "old school" and won't talk about it with thecompetition.John from nobler@satx.rr.com Mon Jan 1 09:32:59 2001 be forged)) f01FWwa27077 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:27:31 -0600 Subject: Re: rod refinishing Regardless, if the old varnish is badly age checkered, I've used Citristrip, from Home Depot, to remove it, with excellent results. It's mild, but at themost, 2 applications does a great job, with no damage to the cane. GMA from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Mon Jan 1 09:38:28 2001 f01FcQa27358 Subject: Re: Rod Identification Help Needed - Pictures Posted on Web Marty: It does appear to be a bakelit winding/cork check. Thanks for theinformation. Of course my friend is going to want to know a value of the rod. Do youhave any estimation of the value? Joe ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Rod Identification Help Needed - Pictures Posted on Web Joe, Is that a bakelite winding/cork check in front of the grip alongwith the butt cap. If so it's definitly Edwards. Marty Thanks to everyone that has replied to my query. At the suggestion of Darrell Lee I have taken some pictures of the rodandhave posted them on my website at http://www.direct- pest.com/rodmakerlook Rods". Darrell, if your listening the engraving on the slip ring says "PatentDated4- 13-37". Had to get my wife to look at it since I can't see thingsthatsmall (I'm an old fogie) Thanks again to everyone who has responded from nobler@satx.rr.com Mon Jan 1 09:40:42 2001 be forged)) f01Fefa27591 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 10:35:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Quick Question. As I recall, a 9 was an "A", and a 10 was a "AA". Tony, are you still frozenin ? GMA from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Jan 1 09:55:01 2001 f01Ft0a28014 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Milling machines vs. bevellers --------------41606A02DF0D6BB2AD80CC8A As much as I hate to add to this fray...... I originally thoughtTerry was talking about bevellers (as in rough bevellers) not aboutfinish bevellers (as in milling machines). With each post I get adifferent feel and in some cases I think squabbles are going on abouttwo different things.I may be wrong but, I think that the use of the two and the effectthey each have on the finished product are two completely differentmatters??As far as the flaming that's going on, I know it's not nice to beon the receiving end (as I have been before),and I don't agree with it.I think I see what Terry is choking on here (not saying I agree) butonce again, he is being "subtle as a sledgehammer to the face".Terry, I know you are in Quebec, and that your background is intool and die(??), by any chance are you Scottish or British?? Nothingimplied, just curious?Joe, I have never actually met you or cast one of your rods, but from what I have SEEN and HEARD they are something you can be proud of!Especially if you have only been at it a short time, I know how hard itcan be starting off (as do most of us here). I think that most methodsof building serve a purpose for different people and that no oneindividuals way is more right than another person's as long as thatperson is willing to accept the consequences of those actions (talkingmostly from a selling perspective there). Rods have been made alldifferent ways for ages, some good some bad,Shawn --------------41606A02DF0D6BB2AD80CC8A originally thought Terry was talking about bevellers (as in rough bevellers)not about finish bevellers (as in milling machines). With each post I geta different feel and in some cases I think squabbles are going on abouttwo different things. the two and the effect they each have on the finished product are twocompletelydifferent matters?? it's not nice to be on the receiving end (as I have been before),and Idon't agree with it. I think I see what Terry is choking on here (not sayingI agree) but once again, he is being "subtle as a sledgehammer to the face". that your background is in tool and die(??), by any chance are you Scottishor British?? Nothing implied, just curious? cast one of your rods, but from what I have SEEN andHEARDthey are something you can be proud of! Especially if you have only beenat it a short time, I know how hard it can be starting off (as do most another person's as long as that person is willing to accept the consequencesof those actions (talking mostly from a selling perspective there). Rodshave been made all different ways for ages, some good some bad, Shawn --------------41606A02DF0D6BB2AD80CC8A-- from Bambootom@aol.com Mon Jan 1 11:29:47 2001 f01HTka28792 Subject: Re: Gadflies and Bevelers One aspect of milling machines (and bevelers too) in regards to reproducing tapers on planing forms is that many of the patterns used in these machines are on different centers, and the action breaks won't end up in a strip dimensioned on a planing form. I know that the later Leonards were done on three inch centers, and I am pretty sure that Thomas and Thomas does the same. On these rods, I take micrometer readings on the threes, and try to set the forms as close to this as possible, but something is lost in the translation. If any one else knows about prominent rodmakers methods to this, kindly post to the group. Tom McDonnell from goodaple@tcac.net Mon Jan 1 11:32:20 2001 f01HWJa28997 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license1dc0b39e31881b14e43eebad2dae5270) Subject: RE: Wood DYE Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C073E7.1B0F48C0 Bob and John, thanks for your replies. Bob, Spavinaw Huh? If we could =get a break from this weather I will be glad to hook up and show you =some nice holes on that creek. The fish are getting bigger due to almost =nonexistent pressure.That is one of those creeks that you don't fish alot because you don't =want people to see your car by the road. Access is mostly private but I =do have a farm that I have permission to cross. How's the ice down your =way. We still have about 2 inches on everything. Back to the shop as =soon as it warms up. Thanks Again and Happppppeeee New Year. Randall R. =Gregory(NW ARKIE) PS. I think I'll fire up the mill today. Just joking. ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C073E7.1B0F48C0 Bob and John, thanks for your replies. = Spavinaw Huh? If we could get a break from this weather I will be glad = up and show you some nice holes on that creek. The fish are getting = to almost nonexistent pressure.That is one of those creeks that you = alot because you don't want people to see your car by the road. Access = private but I do have a farm that I have permission to cross. How's the = your way. We still have about 2 inches on everything. Back to the shop = = joking. ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C073E7.1B0F48C0-- from TSmithwick@aol.com Mon Jan 1 11:41:32 2001 f01HfVa29281 Subject: Re: Focused Rodmakers in 2001 In a message dated 1/1/1 1:41:55 PM, CCGGLOBAL@aol.com writes: Bill - I am going to take a whack at answering this one. By far, the easiest and fastest way is to use the leather wheel method. I am pasting in the text of my article a few years ago in "The Planing form". The setup is a bit different now, since i made a portable unit. A photo is on Chris Bogart's web site in the tools section of rodmaking classes.http://www.shentel.net/canerod/I now use a honing compound from Woodcraft for most sharpening instead ofthe diamond paste. $20 gets you a lifetime supply. I haven't used a bench stone since I set this rig up. You can get the blades very sharp in less than a minute. It's a huge time saver. Running the wheel at higher speeds seems to be no problem also. Here is an inexpensive way to sharpen plane blades that is quick and easy to use. I am indebted to George Barnes, who inspired me to try this. Basically, the setup is a leather covered wheel, onto which a diamond lapping compound has been rubbed. Take a piece of 2 X 6 lumber and bandsaw a 5 3/4 inch circle. You now have a 5 3/4 x 1 1/2 disc. Drill a suitable hole in the center and true up the OD on a lathe. If you don't have a lathe you could also true up by mounting the disc on pillow blocks and holding a sanding block against it.Cut a 1 1/2 inch wide belt out of 1/8 inch hard leather and glue it to the OD of the disc. I used contact cement, which worked fine. The disc is now 6 inch diameter, same as most grinding wheels. Mount the disc on pillow blocks over a bench and drive with an electric motor. I use a salvaged appliance motor which runs at 1250 rpm. This is probably too fast, I would guess somewhere under 1000 is better with a wooden wheel. For a tool rest I simply clamped a block to the table top in such a way that the proper angle on the blade is maintained.The Diamond lapping compound may not be available locally. Try Travers Tool ( 1-800-221-0270 ) in NY. The stuff comes in different grits. I have used the 4-8 micron size with great results. I have some lighter grits also, but have not seen fit to use them so far. Expect to pay about $ 20.00 for 5 grams, which should last for a while. To use, squeeze some compound onyour finger and spread a thin coat on the leather. You will be amazed at the highly polished, ultra sharp edge which is quickly produced. from dickay@alltel.net Mon Jan 1 12:11:53 2001 f01IBqa29721 srv.alltel.net Mon, 1 Jan 2001 12:11:52 -0600 Subject: Re: power fibers Richard, You have to understand that Terry is the resident list curmudgeon.He pops in every now and then to stir things up and usually several listmembers raise to his bait. Ignore him long enough and he will go away for awhile only to appear again in several months to try and stir things upagain. If you go back in the archives, you can find several places where he hasdone this same thing. As I understand it, he is currently employed and is looking at rodmaking asa way of supplementing his retirement when and if he retires. Apparently heis not sure that he can live on his pension. Thus, he is trying to build abeveler/mill that will allow him to produce finishable strips in one pass.This, he feels will allow him to produce rods at a low cost so that he canmass market them. He feels that mass production is the only way toproducerods. He offers as evidence the mass produced Graphite sticks out there. I just read his posts and the replies for the laughs that I get from them.Dick Fuhrman ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: power fibers Here I am, confused again. If a rod is made of quality cane andcomponents, and made to a good set of measurements, and shows adetailedfinish what difference does it make how it got to that state? If it is amatter of price the material cost is pretty much the same for everyone. Itwould seem it is the time element that would vary cost the most. Qualitytakes time and will show up quite easily in appearance and function. or fishing a rod? Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message -----From: Cc: ; ;; Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 3:42 PMSubject: Re: power fibers TerryIt is not bevellers that stick in my throat, in fact I'vebeenlooking into them to help speed things up a bit. It is using them to putouta cheesy ("blue collar") rod that is not up to snuff, that sticks in mythroat.Joseph A Perrigo II www.geneseevalleyrods.com from FlyfishT@aol.com Mon Jan 1 12:36:04 2001 f01Ia3a00125 Subject: Re: Focused Rodmakers in 2001 Rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Hi Tom,I saw your leather wheel set at the roscoe gathering . A couple weeks ago i made one,glad i did a few seconds and have a mirror edge. I use the yellow dia. paste from M. S . C. and just touch it up each time if i don't hit the form and nick the blades up. When i do i go to the stone then the leather wheel for final finish. My question which paste do you use to produce the thousand grit burr edge to remove the nicks in the blade prior to the final finish. Thought i would ask to save time and $. Thanks much ,Tom N from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Jan 1 12:51:31 2001 f01IpUa00469 VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: Production Rods & etc... sophisticated purchaser. The standards that were acceptablein the Goldenera are NOT acceptable standards in the modern era. This is an excellent post, A.J. I think you've said it all in a very clearfashion. Richard from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Mon Jan 1 13:06:48 2001 f01J6la00826 VL-MS-MR002.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: power fibers Ignore him long enough and he will go away for awhile only to appear again in several months to try and stir things upagain. We can choose to ignore Terry but a better idea would be to ask himquestions about building bamboo rods. He has a wealth of knowledge aboutthe subject. Without the veteran rod builders, this list would be largelyjust be a social gathering of people with common interests. Rather thanwait for certain list members to leave because they may have strongviewpoints on certain subjects, we should value their posts because theyshow that alternate methods and rod building philosophies exist. Richard from darrell@rockclimbing.org Mon Jan 1 13:07:46 2001 f01J7ja00998 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) Subject: RE: Leonard 6'10" rod taper - Anybody built and or cast this rod? The reason I asked about this taper was because it is in the taper archiveof the Rodmakers site... so I thought some may have built this taper... Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Leonard 6'10" rod taper - Anybody built and or cast thisrod? Darrell;Ask Ron Kusse, if anyone knows, he does.John Richard Colo wrote: Darrell, I don't think the rod has ever been listed. I have neverheard of it? Rich Darrell Lee wrote: Inquiring minds want to know Darrellwww.vfish.net from HeplerSail@aol.com Mon Jan 1 13:30:01 2001 f01JU0a01376 Subject: unsubscribe please unsubscribe from jfoster@gte.net Mon Jan 1 14:01:34 2001 f01K1Xa01871 Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... A.J., it seems like you're getting revved-up for an ISO certification. Has anyone ever been able to quantify the truth of power fibers, Chrisno nodes, andTerrance (Powell) and others with their run out, etc.seem to be able tomake and sell quality rods without any consideration for the path of thefiber.is it important or even desirable to have straight fiber? is there atest ?I was talking to Press Powell last month and he voiced a concern that weamateurs were potentially damaging our rods by heating and pressingnodes. I'm sure we all have good thoughts for him also.is this art, or are there concrete repeatable targets to strive for? jerry ps Ingvarthat was the one i was refering to. from Canerods@aol.com Mon Jan 1 14:02:23 2001 f01K2Ma02011 Subject: Re: Fw: power fibers --part1_22.ff33952.27823c3e_boundary In a message dated 1/1/01 12:44:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, avyoung@iinet.net.au writes: Those same rods would presumably still sell in the US for $800 US, that iscurrently $Aust 1454 or $1454 x 30 = $Aust 43,636 which is not tooshabby.Still want more? Move to NZ and that would be $NZ 1800 x 30 = NZ54,000andthat's pretty good though making 30 rods a year with all those fantastictrout to catch may take some doing.SA would be around 96,000 RA. You'd be wealthy there. A few years andyoucould set up your own gold mine. Which is why China is the best place to make rods. $24K (US) would be a town's income! Plus they could buy bamboo at a fraction of our cost. Don --part1_22.ff33952.27823c3e_boundary In a message dated1/1/01 12:44:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, avyoung@iinet.net.auwrites: Those samerods would presumably still sell in the US for $800 US, that iscurrently $Aust 1454 or $1454 x 30 = $Aust 43,636 which is not tooshabby.Still want more? Move to NZ and that would be $NZ 1800 x 30 =NZ54,000 andthat's pretty good though making 30 rods a year with all thosefantastictrout to catch may take some doing.SA would be around 96,000 RA. You'd be wealthy there. A few years andyoucould set up your own gold mine. Which is why China is the best place to make rods. $24K (US) would be atown's income! Plus they could buy bamboo at a fraction of our cost. Don --part1_22.ff33952.27823c3e_boundary-- from stuart.rod@gmx.de Mon Jan 1 14:15:19 2001 f01KFIa02401 "Carsten =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F8rgensen?=" ,Rodmakers Subject: Re: Sv: 6 sided 18 Strip rod Hi Christian, Well I can't make much of the ASCII drawing it has come out all mixed up onmy post. But I think you aresaying the same thing as I did (does your picture show an eight sided rodcross section?) I did mentionedthe fact that he does use only power fibres (maximum 1.65 mm depth). Ialso wrote, if you read theoriginal post, that he also built these rods eight sided with sixteen strips. The article I took this information from was written by the rodbuilder himselfin 1998. This is ten yearslater than the one you mention, as we all know a lot can happen in ten years,and he has obviously addedthe 6 sided 18 strip rod to his repetoire (it is called the BY-Serie). One of the reasons for his new building method was his view that traditionalrodmakers were making use ofthe lignin, which is used by bamboo to transport water, which is a lot softerand more porous than thevery outer power fibres. His argument is that the lignin can be of nosubstitute for pure power fibresbecause it is not as elastic and tends to restore water even after it hasbeen heat treated (which I thinkwe can all agree on). Reim states that we heat treat not only to removewater but also to change theaction of the strips (crispness) by driving the oils contained in the powerfibres into the lingin. Hesays that by heat treating oils can only be driven a maximum of 0,04 mmdeeper into the lignin from thepower fibres. He tested this by removing 2 mm of power fibres and thentesting the strips for elasticity.Needless to say the strips didn't stand up to his tests. This is his reasoningbehind taking a maximum of1.65 mm of pure power fibre and doubling or tripling it's width (not depth) bygluing the strips back toback. Pure elasticity with no "soft" lingin. He then positions these powerfibres equally throughout thecross section of a rod by gluing them in a "star form", or as Art Port rightlyput it that the stripsradiate from the centre of the finished rod, once planed to the usual 60Ÿ (or45Ÿ in the case of an eightsided rod). Again Art Port is right when he says that each flat will have 2glue lines.The rod crosssection will then have a total of 18 glue lines (is this right?) on it in the caseof our 6 sided 18 striprod, he also builds nodeless rods which also adds more glue to the finishedrod. That is a lot of glue andone of the interesting facts that this article sidesteps and makes littlemention of. I will get hold of a copy of "Der Fliegenfischer" to see what they wrote 10years earlier than thearticle I took this information from, thankyou for the tip. If you areinterested the article I have readis from "mit der Fliege" spread over three issues 2 '97, 1 '98 and 2 '98. As Isaid though they went bustand are not printed anymore which is a great pity because they were veryinterested in sharing some verygood (for the fisherman) information, which is not always the case inmagazines mainly supported by andsupportive of advertising. It is also probably why they went broke!! Happy New year Everybody Stuart Christian Meinke wrote: The rodbuilding is totally different than described. For his Cane-Starprinciple like Ludwig Reimcalls his building method (which by the way was patented in 1987) he usesonly pure power fibres.If you look at the very simple ASCII drawing you might understand that hecuts only the densest fibresand bundles 16 for his octagonal design. II\I/__ --- --- --- ---- ___ ------------------- * I ---- \ I /* I \ I /\I/__ --- --- --- ---- ___ /I\ ---- ---- / I \/ I \------------- Not to say that I like that design but it is totaly different.He says by this method he would be using the greatest achievable amountof powerfibrespossible.Stuart if you can find magazine 76 (year 88) of "Der Fliegenfischer" therethe method is described. Christian from utzerath@execpc.com Mon Jan 1 14:34:08 2001 f01KY7a02838 f01KY7a79871; f01KY2856683; Subject: Re: Mass apeal You are exactly correct Tony; let me tell you what happened to me. About two years ago I was showing off my first cane fly rods to someco- workers at a factory I did contract engineering work for. Thisparticular company was having many of its consumer products made byvariousvendors in China. While working there, I met a fellow who had a factoryabout 60 miles from the Tonkin cane growing region. His factory neededwork, and he was very impressed by the retail prices of cane rods andseriously inquired if I would be interested in helping to mass produceblanks in mainland China. from what I knew of his operation, even Morganmills would have been an extravagance. Planes and broken glass and onepiece forms would have been their preference. They also had little interestin making or installing what he called the "expensive fittings". I told him I thought marketing would be his undoing unless he couldprearrange to sell blanks to one or more of the major rod manufacturers. Tothe best of my knowledge he did not pursue the venture. Though I never toldhim so, I thought the whole project aesthetically disturbing. However, I amcertain that his factory could have produced whatever quality of work wasdemanded in whatever volume was needed.. clue to the reality of the situation. BTW, someone mentioned theChinese, from what I hear they are already at it, just what the worldneeds.John That may have been me though there could have been others too.Don't know about other countrys but Australia has been trading with Chinasince the mid 70's, I've done some direct dealing with various Chinese andViet Nam companys when I was the stock controller of a mountaineeringchain of stores and there are a few things I came to realise. The Chinese can make anything you like to any standard you need. Normallythat standard is low to mid because China is a great place to knock outthat sort of gear however they like anybody can make excellent gear.Alwaysget an exact sample of the product being made from the factory makingthegear. It does pay to have somebody in China answerable to you financiallyto control the quality otherwise it's possible you'll wind up with junk.Weused to joke that sooner or later we'll open a container and find it fullof dead rats. Occasionally that wasn't far from the truth but that onlyhappened when our rep was slacking off or paid more by the makers thanwepaid to look the other way. The cheap good mass made bamboo rod is a thing you wont win on anymorethan anybody wanting to make a living making cheap graphite rods in theUS,UK or here. If you wanted to make good money without touching the rawmaterials based on the mass market make baked beans or pizza, they sell. Tony from oakmere@carol.net Mon Jan 1 15:34:04 2001 f01LY3a03458 Subject: RE: Powerfibers Hi Bob and others: You have developed an excellent web based magazine. I found both theinitial and the January issue fun to read and think about. Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutbeck Fly and Rod2932 North Bayshore DriveSeneca, SC 29672 Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Rt 44, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work); 864-656-7471oakmere@carol.net (home); 864-882-0077 from paul.blakley@ntlworld.com Mon Jan 1 15:57:52 2001 f01Lvpa03856 Mon, 1 Jan 2001 21:57:50 +0000 christine nelson , Dave Norling,Custom Built Fishing Rods ,Rodmakers Subject: Bait Casting & Spinning Rod Tapers A recent list posting requested information on bait casting and spinning rod tapers.I promised to get back to those interested after the Xmas break so hereare a few of the ones I have collected over the past year ; 6'6" Bait Caster , light action for 1/4 oz luresButt section 39" and Tip is 38" fitted with a Super Swissferrule.The calibrations starting at the butt end and taken on thecustomary 6" intervals are;.440",.420",.400",.330",.285",.255" and 2 " to .230" at the ferrulewhich is 15/64"Tip again at 6" intervals; .230",.215",.190",.170",.150",.125",.095" and3" to the tip at .088".1" being allowed for both the tip top and the butt cap.Extracted from the CK Fox Book, 'Advanced Bait Casting'.( I have just finished the blanks for this rod and if anyone isinterested I'll advise on my thoughts upon completion ?). South Bend 634-5' one piece Bait Caster ( measurements over varnish ).My guess is this would comfortably handle lures in the 1/2-1oz range.Starting from the tip top and measured every 5".0-.109",5-.119",10-.121",15- .138",20-.145",25-.150",30-.219",35-.223",40-.246",45-.311",50- .354.Total length of the rod including end ferrule being 51".This rod beingfitted to a detachable, crank handled grip. Heddon 851-L, 5'6" one piece Bait Caster for 3/8 - 5/8 oz lures( measurements over varnish )0-.110",5-.124",10-.142",15-.162",20- .178",25-.196",30-.214",35-.232",40-.248",45-.264",50-.286",55-.296".As above rod to be fitted to a detachable, crank handled rod. Heddon 850, 6' 0" one piece Bait Caster for 3/8-5/8 oz lures.Considereda Tournament Rod and good long distance caster.0-.110",5-.120",10-.130",15- .144",20-.162",25-.182",30-.198",35-.208",40-.228",50-.240",55- .274",swellbegins 60-.430",62-.468" and 67/72-.468".Again , rod to be fished with adetachable, crank handle.Again I have just finished the blank for this rod and if anyone isinterested I'll advise my thoughts upon completion and after theobligatory Pike fishing trip. In addition to the above other bait casting and spinning tapers are tobe found from the following sources of information; a) Reed Currys web site at www.overmywaders.com,look in 'extracts',tested specifications for bamboo rods-GLHerter 1941 under pagesp129,130-131 and 132-133. b) 'The Bamboo Rod and How to Build It'-Claude M Kreider.This lists several bait casting and spinning rod tapers. c) 'Rod Making' by Peter Stone lists a few spinning rod tapers. In compiling the above tapers special thanks must be given to Messrs'Nobler' and Tyree for their input and correspondence over the lastyear. Good luck with the above and if any of you should ever build ,cast andfish any of the above I would be grateful for anyfeedback......regards......Paul from piscator@macatawa.org Mon Jan 1 16:00:40 2001 f01M0da04092 Subject: Re: Gadflies and Bevelers I think Paul Young used 6" centers. from piscator@macatawa.org Mon Jan 1 16:11:49 2001 f01MBma04389 Subject: Mass Market This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07416.4516D280 Just found this whilst reading to my 9 year old. Applies nicely to the =current current rehashing of Terry's complaint. Hobbes walks up to Calvin putting the finishing touches on a snowman. Hobbes: What's this? I used to make original snowmen, but it was time-consuming, =hard work. So I said, Heck, this is crazy!Now I crank out crude imitations of what's already popular! =It takes no time or thought, and most people don't care =about the difference anyway!Hobbes: So cynical, yet so practical.Calvin: And what good is originality if you can't crank it out? 8^)Brian ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07416.4516D280 Just found this whilst = of Terry's complaint. Hobbes walks up toCalvin = finishing touches on a snowman. this? anyway! So = so practical. And = is originality if you can't crank it out? 8^)Brian ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07416.4516D280-- from cmj@post11.tele.dk Mon Jan 1 17:04:12 2001 f01N4Ba04972 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 00:04:10 +0100 Subject: Sv: Production Rods & etc... f01N4Ba04973 Look at a node, and what You see is something akin toa platefull of spaghetti. Heat it and press it - it stilllooks like a platefull of spaghetti. To be honest, I don't for a single minute believe thatheating and pressing makes the node any "better". Youjust get a shorter "scar" on the outer side of the split. So if You or Your customers dont care, file the littlebuggers completely flat. If not flat, then heat and press.Or build nodeless, whatever that does to the action of the rod. The solution is genetic manipulation of the bamboo - naturalnodeless growth. Somehow I dont think the cost is justified regards Carsten ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Production Rods & etc... A.J., it seems like you're getting revved-up for an ISO certification. Has anyone ever been able to quantify the truth of power fibers, Chrisno nodes, andTerrance (Powell) and others with their run out, etc.seem to be able tomake and sell quality rods without any consideration for the path of thefiber.is it important or even desirable to have straight fiber? is there atest ?I was talking to Press Powell last month and he voiced a concern that weamateurs were potentially damaging our rods by heating and pressingnodes. I'm sure we all have good thoughts for him also.is this art, or are there concrete repeatable targets to strive for? jerry ps Ingvarthat was the one i was refering to. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Mon Jan 1 17:13:41 2001 f01NDfa05247 Subject: Re: A friend in need Guys,Ray's address is Raygould@cmc.net. If anyone wants to drop him a personal note I know he and his family will appreciate it. Bret from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Jan 1 17:35:59 2001 f01NZwa05658 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:35:56 +0800 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 07:35:54 +0800 Subject: Re: Mass Market BULLS EYE! Tony At 05:14 PM 1/1/01 -0500, Brian Creek wrote: Just found this whilst reading to my 9 year old. Applies nicely to thecurrent current rehashing of Terry's complaint. Hobbes walks up to Calvin putting the finishing touches on a snowman. Hobbes: What's this?Calvin: A generic snowman. I used to make original snowmen, but it was time-consuming, hardwork. So I said, Heck, this is crazy!Now I crank out crude imitations of what's already popular! Ittakes no time or thought, and most people don't care about thedifference anyway!Hobbes: So cynical, yet so practical.Calvin: And what good is originality if you can't crank it out? 8^)Brian /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from timklein@uswest.net Mon Jan 1 18:15:36 2001 f020FZa06192 (63.225.127.193) Subject: Re: New California State record trout Aaaaghhhh! I like catching the occasional hog as much as the next guy, but I don't knowwhat the hell I'd do if something like that was thrashing around in thewater in front of me! (I think I might just let the thing have my fly...and line...and rod andreel!) ---Tim from avyoung@iinet.net.au Mon Jan 1 18:38:55 2001 f020cra06557 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:38:51 +0800 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:38:49 +0800 Subject: Re: Mass apeal , Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn't alreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just to illistrate theease this could be done in but you are correct, they'd actually use brokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. What you wrote re. the interest shown in your rod also happened to me butin this case it was ferrules. I used to work for a Korean owned computercompany and did a little work for them from home after I officialy leftthem. The owner came around one day to discuss things and found me at thelathe. I showed him what I was doing and what they were for and he couldn'tbelieve his luck at finding something that only needed people toiling at alathe for hrs at a time. He asked how long it takes, I told him twice thetime it actually takes, he halved it right off saying his factory makingmother boards in China "have people who are very fast, very young, littlefingers". He grosly underestimated the accuracy needed at first then shrugged hisshoulders and said something like that's not a problem, they learn or theyout. The thing is, I know they'll learn. In the end I convinced him Icouldn't possibly use several thousand of each size because there are probonly 100 bamboo rods made annualy all over the world and he lost interestright away. I know, I fibed but it was for a good cause.Skilled labor and technical expertise is not a problem, when you're hungryand you want a TV you learn fast.I know nothing I write here will make a dif but if this ever happenedyou'll see the first run will be almost good enough, the next run will bebetter and after that even we would have difficulty in honestly knockingthem as a good useable rod and you wont believe how quickly it can happen. Tony At 02:35 PM 1/1/01 -0600, Jim Utzerath wrote:You are exactly correct Tony; let me tell you what happened to me. About two years ago I was showing off my first cane fly rods to someco- workers at a factory I did contract engineering work for. Thisparticular company was having many of its consumer products made byvariousvendors in China. While working there, I met a fellow who had a factoryabout 60 miles from the Tonkin cane growing region. His factory neededwork, and he was very impressed by the retail prices of cane rods andseriously inquired if I would be interested in helping to mass produceblanks in mainland China. from what I knew of his operation, even Morganmills would have been an extravagance. Planes and broken glass and onepiece forms would have been their preference. They also had little interestin making or installing what he called the "expensive fittings". I told him I thought marketing would be his undoing unless he couldprearrange to sell blanks to one or more of the major rod manufacturers. Tothe best of my knowledge he did not pursue the venture. Though I nevertoldhim so, I thought the whole project aesthetically disturbing. However, I amcertain that his factory could have produced whatever quality of work wasdemanded in whatever volume was needed.. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from lblan@provide.net Mon Jan 1 18:58:26 2001 f020wQa06910 Subject: RE: Mass apeal Tony; anyone with a problem understanding this need only look at whathappened to our flies. There was a time not all that long ago that importedflies were poorly made, using shoddy materials. Sam Surre used to tie for (name brand omitted) shops. He finally gave it upafter finding one to many of his original patterns had made the trip acrossthe big water, with quite respectable imitations coming back at half theprice he was getting. Larry Blan -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Mass apeal Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn't alreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just to illistrate theease this could be done in but you are correct, they'd actually use brokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. What you wrote re. the interest shown in your rod also happened to me butin this case it was ferrules. I used to work for a Korean owned computercompany and did a little work for them from home after I officialy leftthem. The owner came around one day to discuss things and found me atthelathe. I showed him what I was doing and what they were for and he couldn'tbelieve his luck at finding something that only needed people toiling at alathe for hrs at a time. He asked how long it takes, I told him twice thetime it actually takes, he halved it right off saying his factory makingmother boards in China "have people who are very fast, very young, littlefingers".He grosly underestimated the accuracy needed at first then shrugged hisshoulders and said something like that's not a problem, they learn or theyout. The thing is, I know they'll learn. In the end I convinced him Icouldn't possibly use several thousand of each size because there are probonly 100 bamboo rods made annualy all over the world and he lost interestright away. I know, I fibed but it was for a good cause.Skilled labor and technical expertise is not a problem, when you're hungryand you want a TV you learn fast.I know nothing I write here will make a dif but if this ever happenedyou'll see the first run will be almost good enough, the next run will bebetter and after that even we would have difficulty in honestly knockingthem as a good useable rod and you wont believe how quickly it can happen. Tony from jojo@ipa.net Mon Jan 1 19:01:26 2001 f0211Pa07148 "and Collecting" Subject: Re: Wood dye recommendation Anilines are the only thing with which I am familiar that work well. Now,don't be experimenting and coming up with drugs like Valium. It's alreadybeen done. ;o)M-D ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Wood dye recommendation Randll;Try Garrett-Wade or Woodworkers Supply, I know they both sell anilinedyes for dyeing wood.John Randall Gregory wrote: Happy New Year in advance. I hope that all had a wonderful Christmas.I do have a question for some of you that have been tinkering with thereelseat impregnation process. I have started with reelseats and allseems well. I referred to the archives for the basics. I would nowlike to dye some of my inserts. I have been using a combination ofacetone, acrylic, and other additives to create my resin. What type ofdye would any of you recommend and what application process should Iuse? 1. Dye wood prior to impregnating or 2. Add dye to impregnatingresin. As for the posts regarding bevelers, I have one(routerbased) that I built that works very well given that you pay attentionto running each side of the strip through and that you don't try totake off too much material in one pass. I make several passes toavoid problems and to help mantain the grain. I also make sure totreat the nodes carefully and to straighten the strips. I like it. Ido have to say that I haven't rough beveled in a long time. Haven'thad a rod break yet.Thanks in advance for any advice received. Happy New Year!!! RandallR. Gregory (NW ARKIE) (I hope I didn't jinx my next rod!!!!) from rcurry@ttlc.net Mon Jan 1 19:29:25 2001 f021TPa07649 Subject: Re: Gadflies and Bevelers Tom,Two production rod makers (Payne, Thomas) did not do anything on anycenters, 1", 3", 5", whatever. They had certain patterns (templates) forbuttsand mids, and others for tips. All they had to do was make a note of thesetting of the position at which the pattern was fixed at one end and thesetting of the adjustment screw for height of the carriage. At any time theycould reproduce a strip from these settings. Simple, eh? To make a salmonrodtip, increase the thickness setting. To get a different curve, pull the patternback. Infinitely adjustable, but perfectly reproducible.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ Bambootom@aol.com wrote: One aspect of milling machines (and bevelers too) in regards to reproducingtapers on planing forms is that many of the patterns used in thesemachinesare on different centers, and the action breaks won't end up in a stripdimensioned on a planing form. I know that the later Leonards were doneonthree inch centers, and I am pretty sure that Thomas and Thomas doesthesame. On these rods, I take micrometer readings on the threes, and try toset the forms as close to this as possible, but something is lost in thetranslation. If any one else knows about prominent rodmakers methods tothis, kindly post to the group. Tom McDonnell -- from goodaple@tcac.net Mon Jan 1 19:41:58 2001 f021fwa07941 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license1dc0b39e31881b14e43eebad2dae5270) Subject: RE:WOOD DYE Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0742B.85BDD440 Thanks for the input Onis and Jojo. Onis your method is exactly what I =used to impregnate the inserts. Great job! I modified the solution a bit =( added wood hardener) to help strengthen the solution once dry. As far =as coming up with a valium concoction, I guess I better be careful. My =neighbors have stood across the street watching me wave flame throwers =around, smelled many peculiar chemical smells coming from my shop, and =thought at one point that I was opening up a sawmill. I can only imagine =what could be going through their minds. Isn't rodmaking a wonderful =thing. Actually I'm a very good neighbor, they just never know what to =expect me to have built next. Thanks again, Randall R. Gregory (NW =ARKIE) ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0742B.85BDD440 Thanks for the input Onis and Jojo. = method is exactly what I used to impregnate the inserts. Great job! I = the solution a bit ( added wood hardener) to help strengthen the = dry. As far as coming up with a valium concoction, I guess I better be = My neighbors have stood across the street watching me wave flame = around, smelled many peculiar chemical smells coming from my shop, and = at one point that I was opening up a sawmill. I can only imagine what = going through their minds. Isn't rodmaking a wonderful thing. Actually = very good neighbor, they just never know what to expect me to have built = ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C0742B.85BDD440-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Jan 1 19:47:41 2001 f021lfa08217 Subject: Re: Milling machines vs. bevellers 1ED35FD57FD89F49081549D0" --------------1ED35FD57FD89F49081549D0 Shawn,I happen to be a hooligan from the UK living in friendly Quebec. I am atool and die maker that does not dream of being a rodmaker using thetechniques popular on the list. I do dream of being able to buildreally good quality rods using technology instead of muscleI just happen to believe that cane rodmaking has degenerated from whatwas once a genuine industry to just basement pottering and if a marketis to be created we will have to get some serious rods out there. Thehand planers, on the surface, try to sanctify their method as being theonly true way, yet privately would die for an accurate machine. This iswhy there such a lot of hostility when the word "production" is used.I used to make a few hand planed rods but just got bored so decided togive it up and try to come up with something better.I have finally built something that seems at present to be the versionI will be using. It is very accurate and the strips finish to size andhas a fairly sophisticated degree of automation which grew as I got intothe project. The scrap level is just about zero so I will be able to usethe 2 rods per culm as in hand planing. Will it be mass production? no,but it will be faster than hand planing, more consistent and lesstiring.I have invested a lot of time and a few bucks so I am not too interestedin sharing at present.Terryps I am not sure of the difference between a beveller (english spelling)and a milling machine Shawn Pineo wrote: As much as I hate to add to this fray...... I originally thoughtTerry was talking about bevellers (as in rough bevellers) not aboutfinish bevellers (as in milling machines). With each post I get adifferent feel and in some cases I think squabbles are going on abouttwo different things.I may be wrong but, I think that the use of the two and theeffect they each have on the finished product are two completelydifferent matters??As far as the flaming that's going on, I know it's not nice to beon the receiving end (as I have been before),and I don't agree withit. I think I see what Terry is choking on here (not saying I agree)but once again, he is being "subtle as a sledgehammer to the face".Terry, I know you are in Quebec, and that your background is intool and die(??), by any chance are you Scottish or British?? Nothingimplied, just curious?Joe, I have never actually met you or cast one of your rods, but from what I have SEEN and HEARD they are something you can be proudof! Especially if you have only been at it a short time, I know howhard it can be starting off (as do most of us here). I think thatmost methods of building serve a purpose for different people and thatno one individuals way is more right than another person's as long asthat person is willing to accept the consequences of those actions(talking mostly from a selling perspective there). Rods have been madeall different ways for ages, some good some bad,Shawn --------------1ED35FD57FD89F49081549D0 Shawn,I happen to be a hooligan from the UK living in friendly Quebec. Iam a tool and die maker that does not dream of being a rodmaker using the really good quality rods using technology instead of muscleI just happen to believe that cane rodmaking has degenerated fromwhatwas once a genuine industry to just basement pottering and if a market The hand planers, on the surface, try to sanctify their method as beingthe only true way, yet privately would die for an accurate machine. Thisis why there such a lot of hostility when the word "production" is used.I used to make a few hand planed rods but just got bored so decidedto give it up and try to come up with something better.I have finally built something that seems at present to be the and has a fairly sophisticated degree of automation which grew as I gotinto the project. The scrap level is just about zero so I will be ableto use the 2 rods per culm as in hand planing. Will it be mass production?no, but it will be faster than hand planing, more consistent and less tiring.I have invested a lot of time and a few bucks so I am not too interestedin sharing at present.Terryps I am not sure of the difference between a beveller (english spelling) Shawn Pineo wrote: hateto add to this fray...... I originally thought Terry was talking aboutbevellers (as in rough bevellers) not about finish bevellers (as in millingmachines). With each post I get a different feel and in some cases I thinksquabbles are going on about two different things. the two and the effect they each have on the finished product are twocompletelydifferent matters?? it's not nice to be on the receiving end (as I have been before),and Idon't agree with it. I think I see what Terry is choking on here (not sayingI agree) but once again, he is being "subtle as a sledgehammer to the face". that your background is in tool and die(??), by any chance are you Scottishor British?? Nothing implied, just curious? cast one of your rods, but from what I have SEEN andHEARDthey are something you can be proud of! Especially if you have only beenat it a short time, I know how hard it can be starting off (as do most another person's as long as that person is willing to accept the consequencesof those actions (talking mostly from a selling perspective there). Rodshave been made all different ways for ages, some good some bad, Shawn --------------1ED35FD57FD89F49081549D0-- from seanmcs@ar.com.au Mon Jan 1 20:11:22 2001 f022BKa08722 Subject: Richard Nantel Richard: If you are looking in, would you please let me have yourmailing address. Thanks. Sean from goodaple@tcac.net Mon Jan 1 20:23:35 2001 f022NYa09225 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license1dc0b39e31881b14e43eebad2dae5270) Subject: Bevelers/ Milling machines Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07431.55A881A0 List, I've been following the recent discussion about bevellers of which =I have no issue. I guess I am confused at what point does a machine =become a beveller or a milling machine. I have a router based =mill/beveller of which I use only for roughing out my strips. I usually =stop several thousandths away from the point where I will begin hand =planning. I have always thought of mine as a rough out mill. I consider =a machine capable of applying a taper to the final taper or close =proximity to be a beveller/ true mill. I believe the two are the same. =The main differences falling between rough out and taper versions. Is my =line of thinking correct? Will I ever build a machine of that capacity. =Sure , why not. It's the tinkering that I enjoy. If it were me and I =were to do it commercially, I would have two line of rods. one being the =milled rods with pleasing and quality cosmetics and the other being the =hand planed one of a kind rod for the customer willing to pay the extra =few bucks to be able to say it's handplaned. Some people could care less =if it's handplaned they just want a nice casting cane rod. Others want = ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07431.55A881A0 List, I've been following the recent = point does a machine become a beveller or a milling machine. I have a = usually stop several thousandths away from the point where I will begin = close proximity to be a beveller/ true mill. I believe the two are the = main differences falling between rough out and taper versions. Is my = thinking correct? Will I ever build a machine of that capacity. Sure , = It's the tinkering that I enjoy. If it were me and I were to do it = I would have two line of rods. one being the milled rods with pleasing = quality cosmetics and the other being the hand planed one of a kind rod = customer willing to pay the extra few bucks to be able to say it's = Some people could care less if it's handplaned they just want a nice = ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C07431.55A881A0-- from oakmere@carol.net Mon Jan 1 20:46:09 2001 f022k8a09676 Subject: RE: Shack Nasties Hi Folks: I sense the cold weather and snow has brought on the "Shack Nasties". Everybody must have put their pants on wet and they shrunk. Hell it has evenbeen too cold here in South Carolina over the holiday to get to the river.Remember to play nice when you can. The world runs on "Bullshit". Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutbeck Fly and Rod2932 North Bayshore DriveSeneca, SC 29672 Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Rt 44, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work); 864-656-7471oakmere@carol.net (home); 864-882-0077 from channer1@rmi.net Mon Jan 1 20:59:23 2001 f022xMa09959 Subject: Re: Bevelers/ Milling machines Randall;I've been told that a beveller is based on saw blades set at 30d and amill uses cutters designed for a milling machine, both get the job done,but in different ways. John Randall Gregory wrote: List, I've been following the recent discussion about bevellers ofwhich I have no issue. I guess I am confused at what point does amachine become a beveller or a milling machine. I have a router basedmill/beveller of which I use only for roughing out my strips. Iusually stop several thousandths away from the point where I willbegin hand planning. I have always thought of mine as a rough outmill. I consider a machine capable of applying a taper to the finaltaper or close proximity to be a beveller/ true mill. I believe thetwo are the same. The main differences falling between rough out andtaper versions. Is my line of thinking correct? Will I ever build amachine of that capacity. Sure , why not. It's the tinkering that Ienjoy. If it were me and I were to do it commercially, I would havetwo line of rods. one being the milled rods with pleasing and qualitycosmetics and the other being the hand planed one of a kind rod forthe customer willing to pay the extra few bucks to be able to say it'shandplaned. Some people could care less if it's handplaned they justwant a nice casting cane rod. Others want to have the John Deere orRolls Royce version.Randall R. Gregory (NW ARKIE) from goodaple@tcac.net Mon Jan 1 21:53:23 2001 f023rNa10700 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license1dc0b39e31881b14e43eebad2dae5270) Subject: RE: Wood Dye/ Now Impregnation Process Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0743D.E0CF8F60 Onis did you ever hook up a vacuum pump to your process to evacuate your = I was just curious if this really improves the results before I invest =in a vacuum pump. I am planning to build a top quality impregnation =chamber and I expect that this would improve the process. Maybe even use =only the vac/pump to draw the resin in and then let normal air pressure =maintain fluid retention? Anyone have input? Thanks, Randall R. Gregory. =Ps. I'm still researching this process but definitely plan on seeing it =through. They quote outrageous prices to do it elsewhere!!! ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0743D.E0CF8F60 Onis did you ever hook up a vacuumpump = process to evacuate your chamber prior to introducing your resin? = I was just curious if this really = results before I invest in a vacuum pump. I am planning to build a top = impregnation chamber and I expect that this would improve the process. = even use only the vac/pump to draw the resin in and then let normal air = maintain fluid retention? Anyone have input? Thanks, Randall R. Gregory. = still researching this process but definitely plan on seeing it through. = quote outrageous prices to do it elsewhere!!! ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C0743D.E0CF8F60-- from cfreaner@hq.nasa.gov Mon Jan 1 22:11:08 2001 f024B7a10994 Subject: Rodmakers list commands At 1:15 PM +1100 on 1/2/01, Sean Mc Sharry wrote about Richard Nantel Richard: If you are looking in, would you please let me have yourmailing address. Thanks. Sean Sean, and others: here's a quoted passage from the message sent to everyone when they join the rodmakers list - hope it helps. The command is typed in the body of the mail message, and theSubject line left blank. To request the HELP file: HELP To subscribe to the RODMAKERS list: SUBSCRIBE RODMAKERS firstnamelastname To un-subscribe from the list: UNSUB RODMAKERS To receive one message per day, containing ALL messages for that day:SET RODMAKERS MAIL DIGEST To temporarily stop RODMAKERS mail: SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE To resume delivery of RODMAKERS mail: SET RODMAKERS MAIL ACK(The above two commands are particularly useful to prevent your mailbox from overflowing if you are away from email for an extended periodof time.) In addition, to get a list of all subscribers and their email addresses:REVIEW RODMAKERS from hexagon@odyssee.net Mon Jan 1 22:29:53 2001 f024Tqa11293 Subject: Re: Mass apeal Tony,ferrules are a bad example, they can be produced on an nc lathe without anymanual input so there is no advantage to having them made in China.Products thatare labour intensive find opportunities off shore.Terry Tony Young wrote: Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn't alreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just to illistrate theease this could be done in but you are correct, they'd actually use brokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. What you wrote re. the interest shown in your rod also happened to me butin this case it was ferrules. I used to work for a Korean owned computercompany and did a little work for them from home after I officialy leftthem. The owner came around one day to discuss things and found me atthelathe. I showed him what I was doing and what they were for and he couldn'tbelieve his luck at finding something that only needed people toiling at alathe for hrs at a time. He asked how long it takes, I told him twice thetime it actually takes, he halved it right off saying his factory makingmother boards in China "have people who are very fast, very young, littlefingers".He grosly underestimated the accuracy needed at first then shrugged hisshoulders and said something like that's not a problem, they learn or theyout. The thing is, I know they'll learn. In the end I convinced him Icouldn't possibly use several thousand of each size because there are probonly 100 bamboo rods made annualy all over the world and he lost interestright away. I know, I fibed but it was for a good cause.Skilled labor and technical expertise is not a problem, when you're hungryand you want a TV you learn fast.I know nothing I write here will make a dif but if this ever happenedyou'll see the first run will be almost good enough, the next run will bebetter and after that even we would have difficulty in honestly knockingthem as a good useable rod and you wont believe how quickly it can happen. Tony At 02:35 PM 1/1/01 -0600, Jim Utzerath wrote:You are exactly correct Tony; let me tell you what happened to me. About two years ago I was showing off my first cane fly rods to someco- workers at a factory I did contract engineering work for. Thisparticular company was having many of its consumer products made byvariousvendors in China. While working there, I met a fellow who had a factoryabout 60 miles from the Tonkin cane growing region. His factory neededwork, and he was very impressed by the retail prices of cane rods andseriously inquired if I would be interested in helping to mass produceblanks in mainland China. from what I knew of his operation, even Morganmills would have been an extravagance. Planes and broken glass and onepiece forms would have been their preference. They also had littleinterestin making or installing what he called the "expensive fittings". I told him I thought marketing would be his undoing unless he couldprearrange to sell blanks to one or more of the major rod manufacturers. Tothe best of my knowledge he did not pursue the venture. Though I nevertoldhim so, I thought the whole project aesthetically disturbing. However, Iamcertain that his factory could have produced whatever quality of workwasdemanded in whatever volume was needed.. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from utzerath@execpc.com Mon Jan 1 22:39:18 2001 f024dIa11576 f024dFL42660; f024dDt27967; , Subject: Re: Mass apeal Tony, Yup, and they'd figure out a way to get the raw materials cheaper than youor I ever imagined. I am surprised that your friend would tie up capitalequipment as expensive as lathes to turn ferrules. I picture them roughing'em out with hand drills and files. There's something to be said for keeping rodmaking on a custombuild-to- order basis in which the customer expects something special and iswilling to pay for it. Of course, a similar situation exists in the customgr***ite rod industry. I'd hate to depend on either for a living, though; Ithink it's more fun just the way it is. Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn't alreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just to illistrate theease this could be done in but you are correct, they'd actually use brokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. from Bambootom@aol.com Mon Jan 1 22:49:43 2001 f024nga11875 Subject: Re: Bevelers/ Milling machines John is correct in his explanation about bevelers using saw blades and mills using milling cutters. Often times the makers would set the angles at 61 or 62 degrees so that no glue lines would show once the six strips were bound. Also for quads, the angles were set at 91 or 92 degrees for the samepurpose. Bevelers were made that were very small, no more than the size of a tablesaw. (See Marty Keane's book that shows a working picture of the Edwards beveler - it is quite compact since a pattern is drawn through with the cane strip and that pattern serves to raise the strip further into the two saws.) Milling machines tend to be massive so as to kill any vibration that could cause a chatter mark pattern on the cane. Sometimes these mills used carbide cutters, but many of the older ones used precision ground high speed steel milling cutters. Tom Whittle recently obtained the old Arend mill and found out who his true friends were, as the beast weighed about a TON and needed to be carefully moved. These old mills used a stationary spindle set up, rotating anywhere from 3500 rpm up to 7500 rpm. The beds were long and allowed a cane strip affixed to a pattern to be pulled under the cutter head from one end to the other. Before he passed away, Tom Maxwell explained to me that he felt that a mill was a better design than a beveler, mainly due to less cane preparation prior to cutting and the frequency of adjustment needed with a beveler to ensure reproduceability of strip dimensions, something that is not as important a factor when one understands the basic design of a mill vs. a beveler. Look at the Dickerson book for a well written explanation of his mill, as that mill is very similar to others in the general execution of their function. Tom McDonnell from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Mon Jan 1 23:09:32 2001 f0259Wa12220 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 01:09:24 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Bevelers/ Milling machines Tom,thank you very much! See something good did come out of all this hubbub!I thought a beveller was a machine to turn square bamboo into untaperedtriangular strips and a milling machine turned square strips into taperedreadyto glue triangular strips!I don't think I was alone... was I?? I think that confusion was where someof the problem started.Shawn Bambootom@aol.com wrote: John is correct in his explanation about bevelers using saw blades and millsusing milling cutters. Often times the makers would set the angles at 61or62 degrees so that no glue lines would show once the six strips werebound.Also for quads, the angles were set at 91 or 92 degrees for the samepurpose.Bevelers were made that were very small, no more than the size of atablesaw. (See Marty Keane's book that shows a working picture of theEdwards beveler - it is quite compact since a pattern is drawn through withthe cane strip and that pattern serves to raise the strip further into thetwo saws.) Milling machines tend to be massive so as to kill any vibrationthat could cause a chatter mark pattern on the cane. Sometimes thesemillsused carbide cutters, but many of the older ones used precision groundhighspeed steel milling cutters. Tom Whittle recently obtained the old Arendmill and found out who his true friends were, as the beast weighed about aTON and needed to be carefully moved. These old mills used a stationaryspindle set up, rotating anywhere from 3500 rpm up to 7500 rpm. Thebedswere long and allowed a cane strip affixed to a pattern to be pulled underthe cutter head from one end to the other. Before he passed away, TomMaxwell explained to me that he felt that a mill was a better design than abeveler, mainly due to less cane preparation prior to cutting and thefrequency of adjustment needed with a beveler to ensure reproduceabilityofstrip dimensions, something that is not as important a factor when oneunderstands the basic design of a mill vs. a beveler. Look at the Dickersonbook for a well written explanation of his mill, as that mill is very similarto others in the general execution of their function. Tom McDonnell from goodaple@tcac.net Mon Jan 1 23:18:05 2001 f025I4a12523 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license1dc0b39e31881b14e43eebad2dae5270) Subject: RE: bevelers/ Milling machines Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C07449.B487B0C0 I agree 100% Shawn.. I now know what I should call mine . Thanks, Tom. =Randall R. Gregory ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C07449.B487B0C0 I agree 100% Shawn.. I now know what I= Gregory ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C07449.B487B0C0-- from seanmcs@ar.com.au Tue Jan 2 00:43:20 2001 f026hIa13449 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 17:22:06 +1100 Subject: Re: Rodmakers list commands Claude: Thanks for the reminder. I guess I can email Richard throughthe last item. Best for the New Year! Sean Claude Freaner wrote: At 1:15 PM +1100 on 1/2/01, Sean Mc Sharry wrote about Richard Nantel Richard: If you are looking in, would you please let me have yourmailing address. Thanks. Sean Sean, and others: here's a quoted passage from the message sent toeveryone when they join the rodmakers list - hope it helps. The command is typed in the body of the mail message, and theSubject line left blank. To request the HELP file: HELP To subscribe to the RODMAKERS list: SUBSCRIBE RODMAKERS firstnamelastname To un-subscribe from the list: UNSUB RODMAKERS To receive one message per day, containing ALL messages for that day:SET RODMAKERS MAIL DIGEST To temporarily stop RODMAKERS mail: SET RODMAKERS MAIL POSTPONE To resume delivery of RODMAKERS mail: SET RODMAKERS MAIL ACK(The above two commands are particularly useful to prevent yourmailbox from overflowing if you are away from email for an extended periodof time.) In addition, to get a list of all subscribers and their email addresses:REVIEW RODMAKERS from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Jan 2 04:11:30 2001 f02ABSa14718 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:11:27 +0800 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:11:25 +0800 Subject: Re: Mass apeal Terry,your point is correct, these would have most likely been done on an NClathe as this factory was well set up but the point I meant to make wasthese high population countrys with low wages are looking for laborintensive work because that's their advantage. Making rods would be just aseasy.Actually it's just occurred to me while writing this that the laborintensiveness is to our advantage too no matter if you're an amateur or proprovided you like making them. from a pro's point of view you are largely protected domestically becausemost people aren't interested in true craftsmanship thus keepingcompetition low enough so everybody is more or less friendly to oneanother. Competition is not so hot the prices the rods sell for are ok, notgood but ok again provided you like making rods. from an amateur point of view new rods are rare enough that there is realpride of ownership in making them and everybody sooner or later will beasked to make rods for others, what you then do is up to you and of courseassuming you don't make a complete dog's breakfast of the job you'll havesome pretty decent rods for your trouble. Larry has made an excellent point re flys. Sam in case anybody hasn't seenhis work ties terrific flys but no matter what Sam uses or how quickly heties them he'll never compete with African or Asian flys for volume salesbecause the imports are just good enough to be good enough as it were andmuch much cheaper.Now Sam's a good guy and has a reputation so I guess he'll always have amarket but what about a startup? The bamboo rod scene as it is right now should remain a cottage industryeven if that means the pros see business going wanting, I'm certain if it'sdeveloped too far the soul of bamboo rods will dissolve before our eyes.Sorry to put it that way but that is after all what bamboo rods are about,nobody waxes lyrical about a piece of plastic no matter how good. energy into it you deserve the benefits but keep the design to your selfand take it to the grave. I must confess that I have no idea as to why Terry likes to chide armaturesabout hand planing. Armatures wont be competition to pros in any noticeableway but would be if everybody took his advise and milled instead.Presumably it's all in fun and possibly also instructional.I personally like hand planing, just like I like to chisel dovetails indraws rather than block and glue the corners or rout them but I'm notmaking a lot of cabinets or rods just now however I can see the day I'llget a mill and I wont think twice about it apart from the expense.The way the blanks are made isn't the issue, it's the attitude. There arethe industrialists on the list and there are craftsmen on the list andthere is as much blurring of the lines between the two as there is in theline dividing pros and amateurs.There are plenty on the list who would find milling a rod to be asrepugnant others may find planing, really, simple as that, no hiddenagenda. Fair dinkum as we say here in the Antipodes. I'm happy to say finally I've said my last word on this subject. If Ihaven't made my point by now I never will. Tony At 11:36 PM 1/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:Tony,ferrules are a bad example, they can be produced on an nc lathe withoutanymanual input so there is no advantage to having them made in China.Products thatare labour intensive find opportunities off shore.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from petermckean@netspace.net.au Tue Jan 2 04:52:35 2001 f02AqXa15077 f02Aq7x35033; Subject: Re: power fibers Organization: vet Richard I had a shot at what Terry had to say about rodmakers who don't conform tohis definition of "rightness" because I cannot abide rudeness; however, Icould not agree more with the content of your letter, and while it is notthe path that I would choose to follow in my very small sphere, I am happyto acknowledge that Terry may very well be correct in his summation of theparlous state of the commercial realities of the craft. He just ought not to mistake "amateur" for "inferior workmanship", nor"commercialism" with "professionalism". He may very well have made a lot of us think more than we have for a longtime about the significance of what we do. Keep well, everybody Peter----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: power fibers Ignore him long enough and he will go away for awhile only to appear again in several months to try and stir things upagain. We can choose to ignore Terry but a better idea would be to ask himquestions about building bamboo rods. He has a wealth of knowledge aboutthe subject. Without the veteran rod builders, this list would be largelyjust be a social gathering of people with common interests. Rather thanwait for certain list members to leave because they may have strongviewpoints on certain subjects, we should value their posts because theyshow that alternate methods and rod building philosophies exist. Richard from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Jan 2 05:09:18 2001 f02B9Ga15332 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:09:16 +0800 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:09:15 +0800 Subject: Re: power fibers At least he knows the difference between an armature and amateur. Bloodyauto spell checker :-) He just ought not to mistake "amateur" for "inferior workmanship", nor"commercialism" with "professionalism". /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Jan 2 05:17:19 2001 f02BHIa15552 Organization: ProLog Subject: Re: Mass apeal Yea, I stopped tying flies when I could buy them off the net for $795per dozen and they where as good and better than mine. Marty Tony; anyone with a problem understanding this need only look at whathappened to our flies. There was a time not all that long ago that importedflies were poorly made, using shoddy materials. Sam Surre used to tie for (name brand omitted) shops. He finally gave it upafter finding one to many of his original patterns had made the trip acrossthe big water, with quite respectable imitations coming back at half theprice he was getting. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 7:39 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn't alreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just to illistrate theease this could be done in but you are correct, they'd actually use brokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. What you wrote re. the interest shown in your rod also happened to mebutin this case it was ferrules. I used to work for a Korean owned computercompany and did a little work for them from home after I officialy leftthem. The owner came around one day to discuss things and found me atthelathe. I showed him what I was doing and what they were for and hecouldn'tbelieve his luck at finding something that only needed people toiling at alathe for hrs at a time. He asked how long it takes, I told him twice thetime it actually takes, he halved it right off saying his factory makingmother boards in China "have people who are very fast, very young, littlefingers".He grosly underestimated the accuracy needed at first then shrugged hisshoulders and said something like that's not a problem, they learn or theyout. The thing is, I know they'll learn. In the end I convinced him Icouldn't possibly use several thousand of each size because there areprobonly 100 bamboo rods made annualy all over the world and he lostinterestright away. I know, I fibed but it was for a good cause.Skilled labor and technical expertise is not a problem, when you're hungryand you want a TV you learn fast.I know nothing I write here will make a dif but if this ever happenedyou'll see the first run will be almost good enough, the next run will bebetter and after that even we would have difficulty in honestly knockingthem as a good useable rod and you wont believe how quickly it canhappen. Tony from horsesho@ptd.net Tue Jan 2 05:26:54 2001 f02BQsa15807 Organization: ProLog Subject: Re: Mass apeal Yea, I stopped tying flies when I could buy them off the net for $7.95per dozen and they where as good and better than mine. Marty Tony; anyone with a problem understanding this need only look at whathappened to our flies. There was a time not all that long ago thatimportedflies were poorly made, using shoddy materials. Sam Surre used to tie for (name brand omitted) shops. He finally gave itupafter finding one to many of his original patterns had made the tripacrossthe big water, with quite respectable imitations coming back at half theprice he was getting. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 7:39 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn't alreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just to illistratetheease this could be done in but you are correct, they'd actually usebrokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. What you wrote re. the interest shown in your rod also happened to mebutin this case it was ferrules. I used to work for a Korean ownedcomputercompany and did a little work for them from home after I officialy leftthem. The owner came around one day to discuss things and found meat thelathe. I showed him what I was doing and what they were for and hecouldn'tbelieve his luck at finding something that only needed people toiling at alathe for hrs at a time. He asked how long it takes, I told him twice thetime it actually takes, he halved it right off saying his factory makingmother boards in China "have people who are very fast, very young,littlefingers".He grosly underestimated the accuracy needed at first then shruggedhisshoulders and said something like that's not a problem, they learn ortheyout. The thing is, I know they'll learn. In the end I convinced him Icouldn't possibly use several thousand of each size because there areprobonly 100 bamboo rods made annualy all over the world and he lostinterestright away. I know, I fibed but it was for a good cause.Skilled labor and technical expertise is not a problem, when you'rehungryand you want a TV you learn fast.I know nothing I write here will make a dif but if this ever happenedyou'll see the first run will be almost good enough, the next run will bebetter and after that even we would have difficulty in honestly knockingthem as a good useable rod and you wont believe how quickly it canhappen. Tony from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 07:25:07 2001 f02DP6a16537 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Mass apeal purchasing ferrules that have been roughed out with a hand drill and files,and you guys making the best rods the world has ever seen? Jim Utzerath wrote: Tony, Yup, and they'd figure out a way to get the raw materials cheaper than youor I ever imagined. I am surprised that your friend would tie up capitalequipment as expensive as lathes to turn ferrules. I picture them roughing'em out with hand drills and files. There's something to be said for keeping rodmaking on a custombuild-to- order basis in which the customer expects something special andiswilling to pay for it. Of course, a similar situation exists in the customgr***ite rod industry. I'd hate to depend on either for a living, though; Ithink it's more fun just the way it is. Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn't alreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just to illistrate theease this could be done in but you are correct, they'd actually use brokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. from saltwein@worldnet.att.net Tue Jan 2 07:30:03 2001 f02DU2a16813 ;Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:29:57 +0000 Subject: Re: Bevelers/ Milling machines John, Then are we going to have to come up with a new name for routers thatemploy spiral cutters? Regards, SteveIndependence, MO channer wrote: Randall;I've been told that a beveller is based on saw blades set at 30d and amill uses cutters designed for a milling machine, both get the job done,but in different ways.John from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Jan 2 07:46:33 2001 f02DkVa17188 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:46:29 +0800 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 21:46:27 +0800 Subject: Re: Mass apeal channer1@rmi.net,Eastkoyfly@aol.com, rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Touche! At 08:31 AM 1/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:purchasing ferrules that have been roughed out with a hand drill and files,and you guys making the best rods the world has ever seen? Jim Utzerath wrote: Tony, Yup, and they'd figure out a way to get the raw materials cheaper thanyouor I ever imagined. I am surprised that your friend would tie up capitalequipment as expensive as lathes to turn ferrules. I picture themroughing'em out with hand drills and files. Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn't alreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just to illistratetheease this could be done in but you are correct, they'd actually usebrokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 08:25:36 2001 f02EPZa18407 Subject: Re: Mass apeal I know all the threads about having rods etc. made offshore cheaply was awindup for my benefit.Take Nike as a famous example, they have all their production made in lowpaycountries, yet do you see the benefit of this when you purchase theirproduct?Back in the days when cane ruled, cane was everywhere, there was noexclusiveelement to them at all. OK a good one was always expensive but they could bepurchased off the shelf without having to wait 6 months. The exclusivity ofcanehas been created by the makers of today because they make them so bloodyslowly.Look at the reference to "Blue Collar" from a professional rodmaker gives aclueto just what the mindset is amoung the fraternity. I have seen this atgatherings, guys walking aroud like matinee stars because they have sold arodor two.I would be just as happy to see professional cane rodmaking dragged back uptowhere it was 75 years ago, an honest blue collar craft.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry,your point is correct, these would have most likely been done on an NClathe as this factory was well set up but the point I meant to make wasthese high population countrys with low wages are looking for laborintensive work because that's their advantage. Making rods would be justaseasy.Actually it's just occurred to me while writing this that the laborintensiveness is to our advantage too no matter if you're an amateur orproprovided you like making them. from a pro's point of view you are largely protected domestically becausemost people aren't interested in true craftsmanship thus keepingcompetition low enough so everybody is more or less friendly to oneanother. Competition is not so hot the prices the rods sell for are ok, notgood but ok again provided you like making rods. from an amateur point of view new rods are rare enough that there isrealpride of ownership in making them and everybody sooner or later will beasked to make rods for others, what you then do is up to you and ofcourseassuming you don't make a complete dog's breakfast of the job you'll havesome pretty decent rods for your trouble. Larry has made an excellent point re flys. Sam in case anybody hasn't seenhis work ties terrific flys but no matter what Sam uses or how quickly heties them he'll never compete with African or Asian flys for volume salesbecause the imports are just good enough to be good enough as it were andmuch much cheaper.Now Sam's a good guy and has a reputation so I guess he'll always have amarket but what about a startup? The bamboo rod scene as it is right now should remain a cottage industryeven if that means the pros see business going wanting, I'm certain if it'sdeveloped too far the soul of bamboo rods will dissolve before our eyes.Sorry to put it that way but that is after all what bamboo rods are about,nobody waxes lyrical about a piece of plastic no matter how good. energy into it you deserve the benefits but keep the design to your selfand take it to the grave. I must confess that I have no idea as to why Terry likes to chide armaturesabout hand planing. Armatures wont be competition to pros in anynoticeableway but would be if everybody took his advise and milled instead.Presumably it's all in fun and possibly also instructional.I personally like hand planing, just like I like to chisel dovetails indraws rather than block and glue the corners or rout them but I'm notmaking a lot of cabinets or rods just now however I can see the day I'llget a mill and I wont think twice about it apart from the expense.The way the blanks are made isn't the issue, it's the attitude. There arethe industrialists on the list and there are craftsmen on the list andthere is as much blurring of the lines between the two as there is in theline dividing pros and amateurs.There are plenty on the list who would find milling a rod to be asrepugnant others may find planing, really, simple as that, no hiddenagenda. Fair dinkum as we say here in the Antipodes. I'm happy to say finally I've said my last word on this subject. If Ihaven't made my point by now I never will. Tony At 11:36 PM 1/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:Tony,ferrules are a bad example, they can be produced on an nc lathe withoutanymanual input so there is no advantage to having them made in China.Products thatare labour intensive find opportunities off shore.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from scan.oest@post.tele.dk Tue Jan 2 09:35:36 2001 f02FZYa20764 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:35:33 +0100 Subject: Sv: Mass apeal f02FZZa20765 Terry You are absolutely right - the makers of today have created the "exclusivity"that surrounds cane. Reason? Very simple: Not You nor anybody else havesucceeded in mass producing cane rods for the last couple of decades. Why, one might ask. Well, George has Ginked himself out of business,You have produced a lot of opinions, and very little more. Those whoknows the business, Winston and Orvis and Hardy, seem to have abandonedthe mass produced cane rod. Could it be because the market for the massproduced cane rod is nothing but a dream for a few forlorn souls. Could it bethat the only realists are us handplaners, who do it for the fun, and theprofessional productionists are nothing but people who dream of the gloriouspast and think that if they re-invent the technology of yesterday, history willrepeat it self. If You believe in that, You will believe anything, including Santa. Perhaps "the exclusivity" is the only way for cane rods to survive - wedamned surehaven't seen anything to contradict it. Sorry Terry, You have good ideas, but the hey-days of cane are over. Whydon't You just be realistic and face it. Return to the cottage industry, as Youcallit, make some rods for the fun of it. Or go on making dream rods on dreambevellers regards, Carsten ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Mass apeal I know all the threads about having rods etc. made offshore cheaply was awindup for my benefit.Take Nike as a famous example, they have all their production made in lowpaycountries, yet do you see the benefit of this when you purchase theirproduct?Back in the days when cane ruled, cane was everywhere, there was noexclusiveelement to them at all. OK a good one was always expensive but they couldbepurchased off the shelf without having to wait 6 months. The exclusivity ofcanehas been created by the makers of today because they make them sobloody slowly.Look at the reference to "Blue Collar" from a professional rodmaker givesa clueto just what the mindset is amoung the fraternity. I have seen this atgatherings, guys walking aroud like matinee stars because they have sold arodor two.I would be just as happy to see professional cane rodmaking dragged backup towhere it was 75 years ago, an honest blue collar craft.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry,your point is correct, these would have most likely been done on an NClathe as this factory was well set up but the point I meant to make wasthese high population countrys with low wages are looking for laborintensive work because that's their advantage. Making rods would be justaseasy.Actually it's just occurred to me while writing this that the laborintensiveness is to our advantage too no matter if you're an amateur orproprovided you like making them. from a pro's point of view you are largely protected domesticallybecausemost people aren't interested in true craftsmanship thus keepingcompetition low enough so everybody is more or less friendly to oneanother. Competition is not so hot the prices the rods sell for are ok, notgood but ok again provided you like making rods. from an amateur point of view new rods are rare enough that there isrealpride of ownership in making them and everybody sooner or later will beasked to make rods for others, what you then do is up to you and ofcourseassuming you don't make a complete dog's breakfast of the job you'llhavesome pretty decent rods for your trouble. Larry has made an excellent point re flys. Sam in case anybody hasn'tseenhis work ties terrific flys but no matter what Sam uses or how quickly heties them he'll never compete with African or Asian flys for volume salesbecause the imports are just good enough to be good enough as it wereandmuch much cheaper.Now Sam's a good guy and has a reputation so I guess he'll always have amarket but what about a startup? The bamboo rod scene as it is right now should remain a cottage industryeven if that means the pros see business going wanting, I'm certain if it'sdeveloped too far the soul of bamboo rods will dissolve before our eyes.Sorry to put it that way but that is after all what bamboo rods areabout,nobody waxes lyrical about a piece of plastic no matter how good. energy into it you deserve the benefits but keep the design to your selfand take it to the grave. I must confess that I have no idea as to why Terry likes to chidearmaturesabout hand planing. Armatures wont be competition to pros in anynoticeableway but would be if everybody took his advise and milled instead.Presumably it's all in fun and possibly also instructional.I personally like hand planing, just like I like to chisel dovetails indraws rather than block and glue the corners or rout them but I'm notmaking a lot of cabinets or rods just now however I can see the day I'llget a mill and I wont think twice about it apart from the expense.The way the blanks are made isn't the issue, it's the attitude. There arethe industrialists on the list and there are craftsmen on the list andthere is as much blurring of the lines between the two as there is in theline dividing pros and amateurs.There are plenty on the list who would find milling a rod to be asrepugnant others may find planing, really, simple as that, no hiddenagenda. Fair dinkum as we say here in the Antipodes. I'm happy to say finally I've said my last word on this subject. If Ihaven't made my point by now I never will. Tony At 11:36 PM 1/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:Tony,ferrules are a bad example, they can be produced on an nc lathe withoutanymanual input so there is no advantage to having them made in China.Products thatare labour intensive find opportunities off shore.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from dmanders@telusplanet.net Tue Jan 2 09:41:28 2001 f02FfQa21105 hme0.telusplanet.net Subject: Whats in a name? Guys, Anyone know the difference between varathane and urethane products otherthan company producing them. regards, Don from dhaftel@att.com Tue Jan 2 09:46:49 2001 f02Fkma21474 f02FkdG18566; (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) (5.5.2652.35) Subject: RE: Whats in a name? I believe Varathane is a trade mark. Kind of like Band-Aid. Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: Whats in a name? Guys, Anyone know the difference between varathane and urethane products otherthan company producing them. regards, Don from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Jan 2 09:50:33 2001 f02FoXa21744 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:50:28 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Carsten,I am greatly offended! What is the big idea of bringing SANTA intothis??What now you expect us to believe santa isn't real?? Just who put that latheunder mytree then , huh?? ;^) Next thing you know you will be trying to tell me theEasterbunny doesn't exist and won't be dropping off my rod wrapper when he leavesmy kidstheir eggs?? ;^)Shawn Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry You are absolutely right - the makers of today have created the"exclusivity"that surrounds cane. Reason? Very simple: Not You nor anybody else havesucceeded in mass producing cane rods for the last couple of decades. Why, one might ask. Well, George has Ginked himself out of business,You have produced a lot of opinions, and very little more. Those whoknows the business, Winston and Orvis and Hardy, seem to have abandonedthe mass produced cane rod. Could it be because the market for the massproduced cane rod is nothing but a dream for a few forlorn souls. Could itbethat the only realists are us handplaners, who do it for the fun, and theprofessional productionists are nothing but people who dream of thegloriouspast and think that if they re-invent the technology of yesterday, historywillrepeat it self. If You believe in that, You will believe anything, includingSanta. Perhaps "the exclusivity" is the only way for cane rods to survive - wedamned surehaven't seen anything to contradict it. Sorry Terry, You have good ideas, but the hey-days of cane are over. Whydon't You just be realistic and face it. Return to the cottage industry, asYou callit, make some rods for the fun of it. Or go on making dream rods on dreambevellers regards, Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 3:32 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal I know all the threads about having rods etc. made offshore cheaply wasa windup for my benefit.Take Nike as a famous example, they have all their production made inlow paycountries, yet do you see the benefit of this when you purchase theirproduct?Back in the days when cane ruled, cane was everywhere, there was noexclusiveelement to them at all. OK a good one was always expensive but theycould bepurchased off the shelf without having to wait 6 months. The exclusivityof canehas been created by the makers of today because they make them sobloody slowly.Look at the reference to "Blue Collar" from a professional rodmakergives a clueto just what the mindset is amoung the fraternity. I have seen this atgatherings, guys walking aroud like matinee stars because they have solda rodor two.I would be just as happy to see professional cane rodmaking dragged backup towhere it was 75 years ago, an honest blue collar craft.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry,your point is correct, these would have most likely been done on an NClathe as this factory was well set up but the point I meant to make wasthese high population countrys with low wages are looking for laborintensive work because that's their advantage. Making rods would bejust aseasy.Actually it's just occurred to me while writing this that the laborintensiveness is to our advantage too no matter if you're an amateuror proprovided you like making them. from a pro's point of view you are largely protected domesticallybecausemost people aren't interested in true craftsmanship thus keepingcompetition low enough so everybody is more or less friendly to oneanother. Competition is not so hot the prices the rods sell for are ok,notgood but ok again provided you like making rods. from an amateur point of view new rods are rare enough that there isrealpride of ownership in making them and everybody sooner or later will beasked to make rods for others, what you then do is up to you and ofcourseassuming you don't make a complete dog's breakfast of the job you'llhavesome pretty decent rods for your trouble. Larry has made an excellent point re flys. Sam in case anybody hasn'tseenhis work ties terrific flys but no matter what Sam uses or how quicklyheties them he'll never compete with African or Asian flys for volumesalesbecause the imports are just good enough to be good enough as it wereandmuch much cheaper.Now Sam's a good guy and has a reputation so I guess he'll always haveamarket but what about a startup? The bamboo rod scene as it is right now should remain a cottageindustryeven if that means the pros see business going wanting, I'm certain ifit'sdeveloped too far the soul of bamboo rods will dissolve before oureyes.Sorry to put it that way but that is after all what bamboo rods areabout,nobody waxes lyrical about a piece of plastic no matter how good. energy into it you deserve the benefits but keep the design to yourselfand take it to the grave. I must confess that I have no idea as to why Terry likes to chidearmaturesabout hand planing. Armatures wont be competition to pros in anynoticeableway but would be if everybody took his advise and milled instead.Presumably it's all in fun and possibly also instructional.I personally like hand planing, just like I like to chisel dovetails indraws rather than block and glue the corners or rout them but I'm notmaking a lot of cabinets or rods just now however I can see the day I'llget a mill and I wont think twice about it apart from the expense.The way the blanks are made isn't the issue, it's the attitude. Therearethe industrialists on the list and there are craftsmen on the list andthere is as much blurring of the lines between the two as there is intheline dividing pros and amateurs.There are plenty on the list who would find milling a rod to be asrepugnant others may find planing, really, simple as that, no hiddenagenda. Fair dinkum as we say here in the Antipodes. I'm happy to say finally I've said my last word on this subject. If Ihaven't made my point by now I never will. Tony At 11:36 PM 1/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:Tony,ferrules are a bad example, they can be produced on an nc lathewithout anymanual input so there is no advantage to having them made in China.Products thatare labour intensive find opportunities off shore.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from scan.oest@post.tele.dk Tue Jan 2 09:54:15 2001 f02FsDa22006 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:54:14 +0100 Subject: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal f02FsEa22016 Shawn Only reason I mentioned Santa is that I always sleep when he bringsthe presents. Would not dream of denying the existence of the Easter Bunny - had one for dinner last year around that special time of the year.No C&R politics for bunnies - he he. regards,Carsten ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Carsten,I am greatly offended! What is the big idea of bringing SANTA intothis??What now you expect us to believe santa isn't real?? Just who put thatlathe under mytree then , huh?? ;^) Next thing you know you will be trying to tell me theEasterbunny doesn't exist and won't be dropping off my rod wrapper when heleaves my kidstheir eggs?? ;^)Shawn from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Tue Jan 2 09:56:25 2001 f02FuOa22269 Subject: Fwd: Mass apeal --part1_35.ed387d8.2783541d_boundary www.geneseevalleyrods.com --part1_35.ed387d8.2783541d_boundary Full-name: Eastkoyfly Subject: Re: Mass apeal Terry There really most be some misunderstanding, the reference I made to blue collar was aimed at Uncle George and Bastard Bamboo not to you or me... I am also blue collar. My only concern is guy's putting out a shitty rod like the one I got from the Bastard himself. I remember a time when you were "after uncle George's ass," and I really wanted you to succeed. I don't hate mills, I also think you can make fine rods with them.. hell I'd love to have one. I just don't like the idea of mass producing of crap rods like those. That was all I meant. Blue Collar was the term everyone was using to describe Bastard Bamboo. I in no way think you produce junk, and I'd like to be around long enough for you to see that I also do not produce junk! That being said, why don't you order a rod from me. I'll even give you dealer price. B.T.W that was meant as a joke. Take care you old coot.Joseph A. Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.comPS. I have been calling my kids saucy little punks for two days now! --part1_35.ed387d8.2783541d_boundary-- from dutcher@email.msn.com Tue Jan 2 10:08:26 2001 f02G8Qa23139 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 08:08:20 -0800 Subject: Planing Forms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C07492.C2B0FC80 I am ready. Well, maybe, sort of. Okay, I'll do it. I want to purchase aset of planing forms. I am looking for specific recommendations. I want topurchase a good product that will not disappoint me. What I want to avoid ishaving several sets of planing forms setting in the back of my shop in twoyears because I did not know what I actually needed. This is where you fellows come in. I know a lot of this comes down topersonal experience and trial and error but, I trust in your experiences.So, let me have it. Lord, what have I done? Oh, and DO NOT tell my wife! F.Y.I., I live on a 40' wooden boat so I am not a stranger to hand toolsand hard labor. Yes, at the moment it is a wooden boat. By the end of thissummer it will be a wooden motor yacht. I hope. Best regards,DickRichard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C07492.C2B0FC80 name="Richard R. Dutcher.vcf" filename="Richard R. Dutcher.vcf" BEGIN:VCARDVERSION:2.1N:Dutcher;Richard;R.FN:Richard R. DutcherNICKNAME:DickORG:Trumpet Methodology, Inc.TEL;WORK;VOICE:206- 660-1705ADR;WORK:;;P. O. Box 349;Brinnon;Washington;98320- 0349;USALABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P. O. Box349=3D0D=3D0ABrinnon, =Washington 98320- 0349=3D0D=3D0AUSAURL:URL:http://www.geckotech.com/dutcherEMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:dutcher@msn.comREV:20010102T160524ZEND:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01C07492.C2B0FC80-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 10:08:44 2001 f02G8ia23252 Subject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Carsten,George ginked himself because he had never worked with cane, did notunderstand thequality required in a cane rod and had probably never really seen a good canerod.He was also ripped off in the purchase of a junky milling machine that hecompletelyrebuilt and still did not produce.Ok, there is not the market out there that there was, but there sure is alarger marketthan can be handled by hand planers. Why do you guys keep going on about"mass market"?there is no mass market in fly fishing. There is a difference between "massproduction"and "production"Don't try to tell me the handplaners are doing it for fun, just look at thenumber oflist members that add a fancy rodmaking company name to their posting.If I am a dreamer, then we are all dreamers, Terry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry You are absolutely right - the makers of today have created the"exclusivity"that surrounds cane. Reason? Very simple: Not You nor anybody else havesucceeded in mass producing cane rods for the last couple of decades. Why, one might ask. Well, George has Ginked himself out of business,You have produced a lot of opinions, and very little more. Those whoknows the business, Winston and Orvis and Hardy, seem to have abandonedthe mass produced cane rod. Could it be because the market for the massproduced cane rod is nothing but a dream for a few forlorn souls. Could itbethat the only realists are us handplaners, who do it for the fun, and theprofessional productionists are nothing but people who dream of thegloriouspast and think that if they re-invent the technology of yesterday, historywillrepeat it self. If You believe in that, You will believe anything, includingSanta. Perhaps "the exclusivity" is the only way for cane rods to survive - wedamned surehaven't seen anything to contradict it. Sorry Terry, You have good ideas, but the hey-days of cane are over. Whydon't You just be realistic and face it. Return to the cottage industry, asYou callit, make some rods for the fun of it. Or go on making dream rods on dreambevellers regards, Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 3:32 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal I know all the threads about having rods etc. made offshore cheaply wasa windup for my benefit.Take Nike as a famous example, they have all their production made inlow paycountries, yet do you see the benefit of this when you purchase theirproduct?Back in the days when cane ruled, cane was everywhere, there was noexclusiveelement to them at all. OK a good one was always expensive but theycould bepurchased off the shelf without having to wait 6 months. The exclusivityof canehas been created by the makers of today because they make them sobloody slowly.Look at the reference to "Blue Collar" from a professional rodmakergives a clueto just what the mindset is amoung the fraternity. I have seen this atgatherings, guys walking aroud like matinee stars because they have solda rodor two.I would be just as happy to see professional cane rodmaking dragged backup towhere it was 75 years ago, an honest blue collar craft.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry,your point is correct, these would have most likely been done on an NClathe as this factory was well set up but the point I meant to make wasthese high population countrys with low wages are looking for laborintensive work because that's their advantage. Making rods would bejust aseasy.Actually it's just occurred to me while writing this that the laborintensiveness is to our advantage too no matter if you're an amateuror proprovided you like making them. from a pro's point of view you are largely protected domesticallybecausemost people aren't interested in true craftsmanship thus keepingcompetition low enough so everybody is more or less friendly to oneanother. Competition is not so hot the prices the rods sell for are ok,notgood but ok again provided you like making rods. from an amateur point of view new rods are rare enough that there isrealpride of ownership in making them and everybody sooner or later will beasked to make rods for others, what you then do is up to you and ofcourseassuming you don't make a complete dog's breakfast of the job you'llhavesome pretty decent rods for your trouble. Larry has made an excellent point re flys. Sam in case anybody hasn'tseenhis work ties terrific flys but no matter what Sam uses or how quicklyheties them he'll never compete with African or Asian flys for volumesalesbecause the imports are just good enough to be good enough as it wereandmuch much cheaper.Now Sam's a good guy and has a reputation so I guess he'll always haveamarket but what about a startup? The bamboo rod scene as it is right now should remain a cottageindustryeven if that means the pros see business going wanting, I'm certain ifit'sdeveloped too far the soul of bamboo rods will dissolve before oureyes.Sorry to put it that way but that is after all what bamboo rods areabout,nobody waxes lyrical about a piece of plastic no matter how good. energy into it you deserve the benefits but keep the design to yourselfand take it to the grave. I must confess that I have no idea as to why Terry likes to chidearmaturesabout hand planing. Armatures wont be competition to pros in anynoticeableway but would be if everybody took his advise and milled instead.Presumably it's all in fun and possibly also instructional.I personally like hand planing, just like I like to chisel dovetails indraws rather than block and glue the corners or rout them but I'm notmaking a lot of cabinets or rods just now however I can see the day I'llget a mill and I wont think twice about it apart from the expense.The way the blanks are made isn't the issue, it's the attitude. Therearethe industrialists on the list and there are craftsmen on the list andthere is as much blurring of the lines between the two as there is intheline dividing pros and amateurs.There are plenty on the list who would find milling a rod to be asrepugnant others may find planing, really, simple as that, no hiddenagenda. Fair dinkum as we say here in the Antipodes. I'm happy to say finally I've said my last word on this subject. If Ihaven't made my point by now I never will. Tony At 11:36 PM 1/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:Tony,ferrules are a bad example, they can be produced on an nc lathewithout anymanual input so there is no advantage to having them made in China.Products thatare labour intensive find opportunities off shore.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Jan 2 10:10:36 2001 f02GAYa23519 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 00:10:33 +0800 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 00:10:31 +0800 Subject: *WARNING* More mass apeal Terry Even I think this has gone on a bit. At 09:32 AM 1/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:I know all the threads about having rods etc. made offshore cheaply was awindup for my benefit. It most certainly was not a wind up. The last part re. lots of people LIKEhand planing was pointed as sharply as I could. Not everybody has the samegoals. If that sounds angry or short it's not intended that way. Take Nike as a famous example, they have all their production made in lowpaycountries, yet do you see the benefit of this when you purchase theirproduct? Nike is a very good example in fact. They have a factory in Indonesia andI'm possibly wrong here but I think the factory gets $12 a pr and it's possible the factory has to source and supply the materials. AgainI may be wrong there but regardless it isn't very much.Now, do you see the benefit when you purchase their product? That dependson how you look at benefit.If you are an athlete maybe due to the huge R&D shoe companies spend you*may* have better shoes as time goes by.If you're a punter looking at running shoes but you'd be just as well offwearing gym boots for all the athletic use you give your feet BUT in orderto be cool you can't wear gym boots, you need Reebok because Rod Stewartwears them, or Nike because you never quite know when you will be calledupon to "just do it" like the track stars do.Why is it cool? Because the advertising says it is. How come they can spendso much on advertising? They buy cheap and set a high price point, fromthere it's profit.Do the consumers want cheaper shoes if that meant a halt to advertisingthere for they wouldn't feel like Rod Stewart or a sweating heavy breathingtrack star?Are you kidding? No way. Image is what these guys sell, image is whatpeople are buying and the shoes are just the medium to show the imagepeople want to project about themselves.Then again, maybe you just need shoes and you like the look of them . How about a company with cash make a foray into bamboo rods. I'd think $50FOB is on the high side to make in a low paying country.This company, let's call them "The Evening Hatch" have a thousand bamboorods and decide to do an advertising campaign lasting 12 months involvingfull colour adds featuring the fisherman of your choice. A guy is on TVtelling everybody just how awfully nice bamboo rods are and the nostalgiafactor would be layed on thickly, you know Grandad as a boy with some ofthe buttons on the back flap of his bib and brace pants fishing on asparkling stream with his faithful setter by his side and a brace of fish,maybe not a brace of fish, could be a bit sensitive. Time passes and thatsame rod is passed on to the grand kid when he was the same age Grandadwaswhen he was given his first SPLIT CANE ROD and gee it's as fine today as itwas when Grandad was given it.I can see it now, misty eyed you see you too can have a working family airloom for just $399.50. That price may be on the low side so be ready toraise it a bit just to give it some credence.It'd be so easy I'm scaring myself. Back in the days when cane ruled, cane was everywhere, there was noexclusiveelement to them at all. OK a good one was always expensive but they couldbepurchased off the shelf without having to wait 6 months. The exclusivityof canehas been created by the makers of today because they make them sobloodyslowly. Back in the old days there was no choice if you dismissed greenheart. Nowyou can buy a graphite rod off the shelf without waiting 5 mins. Theexclusivity of bamboo is because the punters expect a rod to be jewelry asmuch as a fishing rod, I don't have to tell you this takes time. If thefinish is of no concern you could always buy a used rod you like. Look at the reference to "Blue Collar" from a professional rodmaker givesa clueto just what the mindset is amoung the fraternity. I have seen this atgatherings, guys walking aroud like matinee stars because they have sold arodor two.I would be just as happy to see professional cane rodmaking dragged backup towhere it was 75 years ago, an honest blue collar craft.Terry It passes in time but it's just as bad to have to suffer the flames andspitballs of outrageous comments,To sit and wonder, why am I wasting my time here, before my PC when thereis much to do?I tarry over long, I'm away. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 10:25:29 2001 f02GPSa24714 Subject: Re: *WARNING* More mass apeal Tony,don't tell me you are not having fun? Certainly beats just receiving " testing,ignore" which seems to have been what rodmakers had degenerated into.Anyway, you bugger, you are not getting the last word. It is freezing coldhereand snowing, if you really want to get up my nose just mention beaches andsunshine, stupid rods wont do it.TerryTony Young wrote: Terry Even I think this has gone on a bit. At 09:32 AM 1/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:I know all the threads about having rods etc. made offshore cheaply was awindup for my benefit. It most certainly was not a wind up. The last part re. lots of people LIKEhand planing was pointed as sharply as I could. Not everybody has the samegoals. If that sounds angry or short it's not intended that way. Take Nike as a famous example, they have all their production made in lowpaycountries, yet do you see the benefit of this when you purchase theirproduct? Nike is a very good example in fact. They have a factory in Indonesia andI'm possibly wrong here but I think the factory gets $12 a prand it's possible the factory has to source and supply the materials. AgainI may be wrong there but regardless it isn't very much.Now, do you see the benefit when you purchase their product? Thatdependson how you look at benefit.If you are an athlete maybe due to the huge R&D shoe companies spend you*may* have better shoes as time goes by.If you're a punter looking at running shoes but you'd be just as well offwearing gym boots for all the athletic use you give your feet BUT in orderto be cool you can't wear gym boots, you need Reebok because RodStewartwears them, or Nike because you never quite know when you will be calledupon to "just do it" like the track stars do.Why is it cool? Because the advertising says it is. How come they canspendso much on advertising? They buy cheap and set a high price point, fromthere it's profit.Do the consumers want cheaper shoes if that meant a halt to advertisingthere for they wouldn't feel like Rod Stewart or a sweating heavy breathingtrack star?Are you kidding? No way. Image is what these guys sell, image is whatpeople are buying and the shoes are just the medium to show the imagepeople want to project about themselves.Then again, maybe you just need shoes and you like the look of them . How about a company with cash make a foray into bamboo rods. I'd think$50FOB is on the high side to make in a low paying country.This company, let's call them "The Evening Hatch" have a thousand bamboorods and decide to do an advertising campaign lasting 12 months involvingfull colour adds featuring the fisherman of your choice. A guy is on TVtelling everybody just how awfully nice bamboo rods are and the nostalgiafactor would be layed on thickly, you know Grandad as a boy with some ofthe buttons on the back flap of his bib and brace pants fishing on asparkling stream with his faithful setter by his side and a brace of fish,maybe not a brace of fish, could be a bit sensitive. Time passes and thatsame rod is passed on to the grand kid when he was the same age Grandadwaswhen he was given his first SPLIT CANE ROD and gee it's as fine today as itwas when Grandad was given it.I can see it now, misty eyed you see you too can have a working family airloom for just $399.50. That price may be on the low side so be ready toraise it a bit just to give it some credence.It'd be so easy I'm scaring myself. Back in the days when cane ruled, cane was everywhere, there was noexclusiveelement to them at all. OK a good one was always expensive but theycould bepurchased off the shelf without having to wait 6 months. The exclusivityof canehas been created by the makers of today because they make them sobloodyslowly. Back in the old days there was no choice if you dismissed greenheart. Nowyou can buy a graphite rod off the shelf without waiting 5 mins. Theexclusivity of bamboo is because the punters expect a rod to be jewelry asmuch as a fishing rod, I don't have to tell you this takes time. If thefinish is of no concern you could always buy a used rod you like. Look at the reference to "Blue Collar" from a professional rodmaker givesa clueto just what the mindset is amoung the fraternity. I have seen this atgatherings, guys walking aroud like matinee stars because they have soldarodor two.I would be just as happy to see professional cane rodmaking dragged backup towhere it was 75 years ago, an honest blue collar craft.Terry It passes in time but it's just as bad to have to suffer the flames andspitballs of outrageous comments,To sit and wonder, why am I wasting my time here, before my PC whenthereis much to do?I tarry over long, I'm away. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Jan 2 10:54:35 2001 be forged)) f02GsZa25882 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:49:03 -0600 "and Collecting" Subject: Re: Wood dye recommendation If you can find the old acrylic plastic dyes, in craft shops, in comes inred, blue, and yellow, which will allow the mixing of most any color.(Primary colors) This dye is VERY fade resistant, and retains the originalcolor at least 40 years, even in bright sunlight !GMA from rodsupstream@exploremaine.com Tue Jan 2 11:05:10 2001 f02H59a26256 Subject: Production verses Custom? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C074B5.408F2740 Production blanks are rolled for about $16 to $20 a piece. Go after thatmarket and watch the big boys go after you, but after you developed afollowing you can make a living at custom rodmaking by offering hard to dothings and one of a kind things. Makes you wonder why fishermen would stand Upstream Always, Tim DoughtyRodmaker ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C074B5.408F2740 Normal0DocumentEmail =0=0 $16 to $20 a piece. Go after that market and watch the big boys go after =you,but after you developed a following you can make a living at custom =rodmaking byoffering hard to do things and one of a kind things. Makes you wonder =whyfishermen would stand for such a mark =up. Signature" Upstream =Always, Tim Doughty Rodmaker ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C074B5.408F2740-- from flytyr@southshore.com Tue Jan 2 11:16:13 2001 f02HGCa26849 Subject: Re: *WARNING* More mass apeal I have been following this tread with tongue in cheek and have nothing to addortake away. What surprises me with all the talk of possible Asian countrymassproducing bamboo rods that no one has mentioned the "Pain" rod company. Ihave beenoffered blanks from a dealer that is getting them from China. They areimpregnatedTonkin cane I am told. So that time may already be here and not in thefuture. Fromwhat I gather these are just blanks, I have no interest in them, I just like toplane the bamboo, am too old to worry about getting in a business of makingbamboorods. I just like to work with my hands and make the rod the best I know how.Tony FlyTyr@southshore.com. "T. Ackland" wrote: Tony,don't tell me you are not having fun? Certainly beats just receiving "testing,ignore" which seems to have been what rodmakers had degenerated into.Anyway, you bugger, you are not getting the last word. It is freezing coldhereand snowing, if you really want to get up my nose just mention beaches and from ewp42@yahoo.com Tue Jan 2 11:16:14 2001 f02HGDa26854 2001 09:16:14 PST Subject: Re: Production verses Custom? Makes you wonder why fishermen would stand for sucha mark up. from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Jan 2 12:04:39 2001 f02I4ca28758 VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: Mass apeal You have produced a lot of opinions, and very little more. Those whoknows the business, Winston and Orvis and Hardy, seem to haveabandonedthe mass produced cane rod. Could it be because the market produced cane rod is nothing but a dream for a few forlornsouls. The mark up on a graphite rod is very high. The cost of materials and laborto produce a graphite rod is minimal, allowing companies such as Winston,Sage and Loomis to make large profits. Also, they continue to put out new,"better" higher modulus models each year in the same way softwarecompaniesprovide an endless stream of upgrades that we "must" have. Companies such as Winston and Orvis sell bamboo rods in the $2000- 2500range. Even at that price, I suspect the percentage mark up on their bamboorods is less than on their graphite rods. There is absolutely no way thesecompanies would venture into selling $1000 cane rods because these lowprofit items would be competing directly with their high profit graphitemodels. So, there isn't much of an incentive for these companies to market canerods. Also, cane rods do not offer these companies the "upgrade" potentialof new, next generation bamboo each year. People on the escalating modulusbandwagon won't be buying a new cane rod every two years because the newmodel has a 3 x 3 node stagger as opposed to the old 2 x 2 x 2 pattern. Richard from darrell@rockclimbing.org Tue Jan 2 12:04:54 2001 f02I4ra28787 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) Subject: RE: *WARNING* More mass apeal Well Terry, Here's the weather report today in Los Angeles... http://www.weather.com/weather/us/zips/90068.html Sorry guys, I couldn't resist... L.A. doesn't have the great fishing likemost of you guys have, but we do have the nice mild winters... 8^) Darrell -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: *WARNING* More mass apeal Tony,don't tell me you are not having fun? Certainly beats just receiving "testing,ignore" which seems to have been what rodmakers had degenerated into.Anyway, you bugger, you are not getting the last word. It is freezing coldhereand snowing, if you really want to get up my nose just mention beaches andsunshine, stupid rods wont do it.TerryTony Young wrote: Terry Even I think this has gone on a bit. At 09:32 AM 1/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:I know all the threads about having rods etc. made offshore cheaply was awindup for my benefit. It most certainly was not a wind up. The last part re. lots of people LIKEhand planing was pointed as sharply as I could. Not everybody has the samegoals. If that sounds angry or short it's not intended that way. Take Nike as a famous example, they have all their production made in lowpaycountries, yet do you see the benefit of this when you purchase theirproduct? Nike is a very good example in fact. They have a factory in Indonesia andI'm possibly wrong here but I think the factory gets $12 a prand it's possible the factory has to source and supply the materials.AgainI may be wrong there but regardless it isn't very much.Now, do you see the benefit when you purchase their product? Thatdependson how you look at benefit.If you are an athlete maybe due to the huge R&D shoe companies spend you*may* have better shoes as time goes by.If you're a punter looking at running shoes but you'd be just as well offwearing gym boots for all the athletic use you give your feet BUT in orderto be cool you can't wear gym boots, you need Reebok because RodStewartwears them, or Nike because you never quite know when you will be calledupon to "just do it" like the track stars do.Why is it cool? Because the advertising says it is. How come they canspendso much on advertising? They buy cheap and set a high price point, fromthere it's profit.Do the consumers want cheaper shoes if that meant a halt to advertisingthere for they wouldn't feel like Rod Stewart or a sweating heavybreathingtrack star?Are you kidding? No way. Image is what these guys sell, image is whatpeople are buying and the shoes are just the medium to show the imagepeople want to project about themselves.Then again, maybe you just need shoes and you like the look of them . How about a company with cash make a foray into bamboo rods. I'd think$50FOB is on the high side to make in a low paying country.This company, let's call them "The Evening Hatch" have a thousand bamboorods and decide to do an advertising campaign lasting 12 months involvingfull colour adds featuring the fisherman of your choice. A guy is on TVtelling everybody just how awfully nice bamboo rods are and the nostalgiafactor would be layed on thickly, you know Grandad as a boy with some ofthe buttons on the back flap of his bib and brace pants fishing on asparkling stream with his faithful setter by his side and a brace of fish,maybe not a brace of fish, could be a bit sensitive. Time passes and thatsame rod is passed on to the grand kid when he was the same age Grandadwaswhen he was given his first SPLIT CANE ROD and gee it's as fine today asitwas when Grandad was given it.I can see it now, misty eyed you see you too can have a working family airloom for just $399.50. That price may be on the low side so be ready toraise it a bit just to give it some credence.It'd be so easy I'm scaring myself. Back in the days when cane ruled, cane was everywhere, there was noexclusiveelement to them at all. OK a good one was always expensive but theycouldbepurchased off the shelf without having to wait 6 months. The exclusivityof canehas been created by the makers of today because they make them sobloodyslowly. Back in the old days there was no choice if you dismissed greenheart. Nowyou can buy a graphite rod off the shelf without waiting 5 mins. Theexclusivity of bamboo is because the punters expect a rod to be jewelry asmuch as a fishing rod, I don't have to tell you this takes time. If thefinish is of no concern you could always buy a used rod you like. Look at the reference to "Blue Collar" from a professional rodmaker givesa clueto just what the mindset is amoung the fraternity. I have seen this atgatherings, guys walking aroud like matinee stars because they have soldarodor two.I would be just as happy to see professional cane rodmaking dragged backup towhere it was 75 years ago, an honest blue collar craft.Terry It passes in time but it's just as bad to have to suffer the flames andspitballs of outrageous comments,To sit and wonder, why am I wasting my time here, before my PC whenthereis much to do?I tarry over long, I'm away. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from earsdws@duke.edu Tue Jan 2 12:18:33 2001 f02IIXa29549 NAA06674; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Duke University Medical Center rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Living in LA has so many downsides, weather can't make up... Life in LA has so many downsides that no weather conditions could possiblymakeit worth while. Sorry. If you want a pretty darn fair compromise, try livingin North Carolina (I moved here from Canada 9+ years ago - trust me, I KNOWUGLYweather, even if great fishing) - decent year-round weather and Virginia andSmoky Mountain trout within an hour or so. Life is good.dws. from Eastkoyfly@aol.com Tue Jan 2 12:23:14 2001 f02INCa29825 Subject: Fwd: POWER FIBERS !! --part1_71.98a410a.27837687_boundary www.geneseevalleyrods.com --part1_71.98a410a.27837687_boundary Full-name: Eastkoyfly Subject: POWER FIBERS !! ListIn all this commotion I almost forgot! Bob Maulucci you did an amazing job on the new issue of Power Fibers, what a great effort! We all owe you a great big Thank You. The magazine is just outstanding. You da man! Joseph A Perrigo www.geneseevalleyrods.com --part1_71.98a410a.27837687_boundary-- from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Jan 2 12:25:38 2001 f02IPca00005 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Rod wrapper All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinkingofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. My questionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop and theplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard with somescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Jan 2 12:34:20 2001 f02IYKa00455 VL-MS-MR002.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) "'Rodmakers Info'" Subject: RE: Production verses Custom? "new Redington Nano Titanium" rod . . . Arrrghhhh!! Idon't think the plastic rod manufacturers have foundthe price ceiling yet, but God knows they willcontinue to try. companies to work, each new line of fly rods HAS to cost more than thelast, even if development costs drop or remain the same. People will notview the product as superior and worth purchasing if it costs the same orless than last year's model. As long as we continue to equate price with quality, there will be no priceceiling. Richard from ewp42@yahoo.com Tue Jan 2 12:41:45 2001 f02Ifja01001 2001 10:41:45 PST Subject: RE: Production verses Custom? "'Rodmakers Info'" It's even more insidious than what you describebecause the major manufacturers relegate theirsuperseded models to the category of "entry level" or"for the less demanding angler" or "more forgiving"categories. Or, occasionally, as in the case ofSage's *very* popular LL series, they simply drop theentire line. Eric __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!http://photos.yahoo.com/ from cmj@post11.tele.dk Tue Jan 2 12:48:04 2001 f02Im3a01369 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:48:01 +0100 Subject: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal - the end f02Im4a01370 Hi Terry - a few brief comments. I think we have to find anotherdead horse to beat now. Carsten,George ginked himself because he had never worked with cane, did notunderstand thequality required in a cane rod and had probably never really seen a goodcane rod. Nope, Terry. He tried and failed in inventing yesterdays technology. The canerod businessisn+t that hard to find out - You just read a book or ten, and You will finddozens ofways to do the thing. This aint harder to learn than knitting You can have aweek-end classand wind up with a tomato stick. You dont have to work full time for years inorder to learnrodmaking. He was also ripped off in the purchase of a junky milling machine that hecompletelyrebuilt and still did not produce. You got it ' he failed to re-invent the technology. Ok, there is not the market out there that there was, but there sure is alarger marketthan can be handled by hand planers. Says who? You persist in telling so, but NOBODY has proven it so far. On thecontrary,the guys with the working bevellers etc. has more or less given it up. Whatdoes thatindicate??? Why do you guys keep going on about "mass market"?there is no mass market in fly fishing. Now that is nonsense. Flyfishing in US is a HUGE business - open Your eyesand notice the amount of advertizing from Sage etc. Their monthly PR-budgets are larger thanany yearly turn- over You could ever hope for. Same goes for Europe- we too buy Sage etc. There is a difference between "mass production"and "production" Yes, and so what? What is important is Your definition of the words.So when Your beveller is really up and going, You will make 150 rods perannum instead of 30 if You were handplaning? Boy, are You really goingto revolutionize the FF market place. Sage etc. are really going to feelthreatened...... Wake up Terry. Reality is that You'd prob. never be ableto raise the necessary capital to grow beyond cottage industry, beveller ornot, without raising loans in the 100.000 USD class. Are You ready for that?Or do You just want to be the lonely craftsman, sweating along all dayat his planin... ups, sorry, I meant beveller. Don't try to tell me the handplaners are doing it for fun, just look at thenumber oflist members that add a fancy rodmaking company name to their posting. Well, terry, I am a handplaner. I do it for fun AND for the money. I don't usemore timeon rodmaking than is fun, I say no to new orders or back log if too much timeis spendon rodmaking.. I make my living running a truck-for- hire business, hopefullywith an eyeto the net result. Can't see why I should not do the same when rodmaking,so I chargewhatever the market is ready to pay. If. the market would not meet mydemand, I'dmake fever rods. surely would not make 15 rods per year and give away the10 foralmost free. If this makes me a handplaning pro, then be it. I prefer to callmyselfa rodmaker amateur. If I am a dreamer, then we are all dreamers, Sure we're dreamers. Nobody but an enthusiast and dreamer would evereven considermaking a living from rodmaking. You just ask Orvis, Hardy etc. They did it foryearsand abandoned it at first given opportunity. Sorry to splinter Your dreams, Terry, bu cane rodmaking is, alass, only foramateurs anddreamers. But boy is it fun.' regards, Carsten Terry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry You are absolutely right - the makers of today have created the"exclusivity"that surrounds cane. Reason? Very simple: Not You nor anybody elsehavesucceeded in mass producing cane rods for the last couple of decades. Why, one might ask. Well, George has Ginked himself out of business,You have produced a lot of opinions, and very little more. Those whoknows the business, Winston and Orvis and Hardy, seem to haveabandonedthe mass produced cane rod. Could it be because the market for themassproduced cane rod is nothing but a dream for a few forlorn souls. Could itbethat the only realists are us handplaners, who do it for the fun, and theprofessional productionists are nothing but people who dream of thegloriouspast and think that if they re-invent the technology of yesterday,history willrepeat it self. If You believe in that, You will believe anything, includingSanta. Perhaps "the exclusivity" is the only way for cane rods to survive - wedamned surehaven't seen anything to contradict it. Sorry Terry, You have good ideas, but the hey-days of cane are over.Whydon't You just be realistic and face it. Return to the cottage industry, asYou callit, make some rods for the fun of it. Or go on making dream rods ondream bevellers regards, Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 3:32 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal I know all the threads about having rods etc. made offshore cheaplywas a windup for my benefit.Take Nike as a famous example, they have all their production made inlow paycountries, yet do you see the benefit of this when you purchase theirproduct?Back in the days when cane ruled, cane was everywhere, there was noexclusiveelement to them at all. OK a good one was always expensive but theycould bepurchased off the shelf without having to wait 6 months. Theexclusivity of canehas been created by the makers of today because they make them sobloody slowly.Look at the reference to "Blue Collar" from a professional rodmakergives a clueto just what the mindset is amoung the fraternity. I have seen this atgatherings, guys walking aroud like matinee stars because they havesold a rodor two.I would be just as happy to see professional cane rodmaking draggedback up towhere it was 75 years ago, an honest blue collar craft.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry,your point is correct, these would have most likely been done on anNClathe as this factory was well set up but the point I meant to makewasthese high population countrys with low wages are looking for laborintensive work because that's their advantage. Making rods would bejust aseasy.Actually it's just occurred to me while writing this that the laborintensiveness is to our advantage too no matter if you're an amateuror proprovided you like making them. from a pro's point of view you are largely protected domesticallybecausemost people aren't interested in true craftsmanship thus keepingcompetition low enough so everybody is more or less friendly to oneanother. Competition is not so hot the prices the rods sell for are ok,notgood but ok again provided you like making rods. from an amateur point of view new rods are rare enough that thereis realpride of ownership in making them and everybody sooner or later willbeasked to make rods for others, what you then do is up to you and ofcourseassuming you don't make a complete dog's breakfast of the job you'llhavesome pretty decent rods for your trouble. Larry has made an excellent point re flys. Sam in case anybodyhasn't seenhis work ties terrific flys but no matter what Sam uses or howquickly heties them he'll never compete with African or Asian flys for volumesalesbecause the imports are just good enough to be good enough as itwere andmuch much cheaper.Now Sam's a good guy and has a reputation so I guess he'll alwayshave amarket but what about a startup? The bamboo rod scene as it is right now should remain a cottageindustryeven if that means the pros see business going wanting, I'm certain ifit'sdeveloped too far the soul of bamboo rods will dissolve before oureyes.Sorry to put it that way but that is after all what bamboo rods areabout,nobody waxes lyrical about a piece of plastic no matter how good. energy into it you deserve the benefits but keep the design to yourselfand take it to the grave. I must confess that I have no idea as to why Terry likes to chidearmaturesabout hand planing. Armatures wont be competition to pros in anynoticeableway but would be if everybody took his advise and milled instead.Presumably it's all in fun and possibly also instructional.I personally like hand planing, just like I like to chisel dovetails indraws rather than block and glue the corners or rout them but I'mnotmaking a lot of cabinets or rods just now however I can see the dayI'llget a mill and I wont think twice about it apart from the expense.The way the blanks are made isn't the issue, it's the attitude. Therearethe industrialists on the list and there are craftsmen on the list andthere is as much blurring of the lines between the two as there is intheline dividing pros and amateurs.There are plenty on the list who would find milling a rod to be asrepugnant others may find planing, really, simple as that, no hiddenagenda. Fair dinkum as we say here in the Antipodes. I'm happy to say finally I've said my last word on this subject. If Ihaven't made my point by now I never will. Tony At 11:36 PM 1/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:Tony,ferrules are a bad example, they can be produced on an nc lathewithout anymanual input so there is no advantage to having them made inChina.Products thatare labour intensive find opportunities off shore.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms andweedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Jan 2 13:02:04 2001 f02J24a02087 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:01:59 -0800 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper Shawn,I use an old Herters spool tensioning device (much like the Thompsonreproduction that Russ Gooding sells) and hold the rod in my hands. I alsouse a 3x magnifying lamp.I found that the washer type tension devices tended to worsen the"fuzzies" on the thread.And no wrapping stand has ever worked well for me. Just my $.02 Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. My questionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop and theplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard with somescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from cathcreek@hotmail.com Tue Jan 2 13:14:49 2001 f02JEna02609 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 11:14:44 -0800 Tue, 02 Jan 2001 19:14:44 GMT Subject: Re: Fwd: POWER FIBERS !! FILETIME=[44134320:01C074F0] I agree Bob. I also forgot to say great job! Looking forward to the next! Rob Clarkecathcreek@hotmail.comhttp://ccr_2.tropod.com/bamboo From: Eastkoyfly@aol.com Subject: Fwd: POWER FIBERS !!Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:23:03 EST www.geneseevalleyrods.com _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from cmj@post11.tele.dk Tue Jan 2 13:22:43 2001 f02JMga03056 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:22:42 +0100 Subject: Sv: Rod wrapper f02JMha03057 A washer tension device from an old sewing machine, whatever woodwas at hand, some leather and an evenings work, an hey presto, I mademy own rod wrapper. It works too. regards, carsten ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Rod wrapper All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. My questionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop and theplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard with somescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn from dhaftel@att.com Tue Jan 2 13:26:36 2001 f02JQZa03322 f02JQUY10196; (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) (5.5.2652.35) Subject: RE: Rod wrapper In most cases I'm a firm believer in the KISS rule. I have been wrapping byhand, using a fly tying bobbin with a ceramic insert and a wood cradle thatI made. I get nice, fuzz-free wraps every time. Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: Rod wrapper All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. My questionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop and theplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard with somescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn from stpete@netten.net Tue Jan 2 13:27:56 2001 f02JRta03493 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 13:28:56 -0600 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Mass apeal Richard, I won't disagree that graphite rods have a very high mark-up. But why don'tyou call around and try to purchase some custom made graphite/scrimmaterial.I think you will be quite surprised at the price of the material. I won'targue labor. Rick C. Richard Nantel wrote: You have produced a lot of opinions, and very little more. Those whoknows the business, Winston and Orvis and Hardy, seem to haveabandonedthe mass produced cane rod. Could it be because the market produced cane rod is nothing but a dream for a few forlornsouls. The mark up on a graphite rod is very high. The cost of materials and laborto produce a graphite rod is minimal, allowing companies such as Winston,Sage and Loomis to make large profits. Also, they continue to put out new,"better" higher modulus models each year in the same way softwarecompaniesprovide an endless stream of upgrades that we "must" have. Companies such as Winston and Orvis sell bamboo rods in the $2000- 2500range. Even at that price, I suspect the percentage mark up on theirbamboorods is less than on their graphite rods. There is absolutely no way thesecompanies would venture into selling $1000 cane rods because these lowprofit items would be competing directly with their high profit graphitemodels. So, there isn't much of an incentive for these companies to market canerods. Also, cane rods do not offer these companies the "upgrade" potentialof new, next generation bamboo each year. People on the escalatingmodulusbandwagon won't be buying a new cane rod every two years because thenewmodel has a 3 x 3 node stagger as opposed to the old 2 x 2 x 2 pattern. Richard from dnorl@qwest.net Tue Jan 2 14:01:23 2001 f02K1Ma05193 (63.228.47.17) Subject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal - the end It is not necsary to seek the truth,only to have no view.Lao Tsu-----Original Message----- Subject: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal - the end Hi Terry - a few brief comments. I think we have to find anotherdead horse to beat now. Carsten,George ginked himself because he had never worked with cane, did notunderstand thequality required in a cane rod and had probably never really seen a goodcane rod. Nope, Terry. He tried and failed in inventing yesterdays technology. Thecane rod businessisn+t that hard to find out - You just read a book or ten, and You willfind dozens ofways to do the thing. This aint harder to learn than knitting You can havea week-end classand wind up with a tomato stick. You dont have to work full time for yearsin order to learnrodmaking. He was also ripped off in the purchase of a junky milling machine that hecompletelyrebuilt and still did not produce. You got it ' he failed to re-invent the technology. Ok, there is not the market out there that there was, but there sure is alarger marketthan can be handled by hand planers. Says who? You persist in telling so, but NOBODY has proven it so far. Onthe contrary,the guys with the working bevellers etc. has more or less given it up. Whatdoes thatindicate??? Why do you guys keep going on about "mass market"?there is no mass market in fly fishing. Now that is nonsense. Flyfishing in US is a HUGE business - open Your eyesand notice the amount of advertizing from Sage etc. Their monthlyPR-budgets are larger thanany yearly turn-over You could ever hope for. Same goes for Europe- we too buy Sage etc. There is a difference between "mass production"and "production" Yes, and so what? What is important is Your definition of the words.So when Your beveller is really up and going, You will make 150 rods perannum instead of 30 if You were handplaning? Boy, are You really goingto revolutionize the FF market place. Sage etc. are really going to feelthreatened...... Wake up Terry. Reality is that You'd prob. never be ableto raise the necessary capital to grow beyond cottage industry, beveller ornot, without raising loans in the 100.000 USD class. Are You ready forthat?Or do You just want to be the lonely craftsman, sweating along all dayat his planin... ups, sorry, I meant beveller. Don't try to tell me the handplaners are doing it for fun, just look atthe number oflist members that add a fancy rodmaking company name to their posting. Well, terry, I am a handplaner. I do it for fun AND for the money. I don'tuse more timeon rodmaking than is fun, I say no to new orders or back log if too muchtime is spendon rodmaking.. I make my living running a truck-for-hire business,hopefully with an eyeto the net result. Can't see why I should not do the same when rodmaking,so I chargewhatever the market is ready to pay. If. the market would not meet mydemand, I'dmake fever rods. surely would not make 15 rods per year and give awaythe10 foralmost free. If this makes me a handplaning pro, then be it. I prefer tocall myselfa rodmaker amateur. If I am a dreamer, then we are all dreamers, Sure we're dreamers. Nobody but an enthusiast and dreamer would everevenconsidermaking a living from rodmaking. You just ask Orvis, Hardy etc. They did it and abandoned it at first given opportunity. Sorry to splinter Your dreams, Terry, bu cane rodmaking is, alass, only foramateurs anddreamers. But boy is it fun.' regards, Carsten Terry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry You are absolutely right - the makers of today have created the"exclusivity"that surrounds cane. Reason? Very simple: Not You nor anybody elsehavesucceeded in mass producing cane rods for the last couple of decades. Why, one might ask. Well, George has Ginked himself out of business,You have produced a lot of opinions, and very little more. Those whoknows the business, Winston and Orvis and Hardy, seem to haveabandonedthe mass produced cane rod. Could it be because the market for themassproduced cane rod is nothing but a dream for a few forlorn souls. Couldit bethat the only realists are us handplaners, who do it for the fun, andtheprofessional productionists are nothing but people who dream of thegloriouspast and think that if they re-invent the technology of yesterday,history willrepeat it self. If You believe in that, You will believe anything,including Santa. Perhaps "the exclusivity" is the only way for cane rods to survive - wedamned surehaven't seen anything to contradict it. Sorry Terry, You have good ideas, but the hey-days of cane are over.Whydon't You just be realistic and face it. Return to the cottageindustry, as You callit, make some rods for the fun of it. Or go on making dream rods ondream bevellers regards, Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 3:32 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal I know all the threads about having rods etc. made offshore cheaplywas a windup for my benefit.Take Nike as a famous example, they have all their production made inlow paycountries, yet do you see the benefit of this when you purchase theirproduct?Back in the days when cane ruled, cane was everywhere, there was noexclusiveelement to them at all. OK a good one was always expensive but theycould bepurchased off the shelf without having to wait 6 months. Theexclusivity of canehas been created by the makers of today because they make them sobloody slowly.Look at the reference to "Blue Collar" from a professional rodmakergives a clueto just what the mindset is amoung the fraternity. I have seen thisatgatherings, guys walking aroud like matinee stars because they havesold a rodor two.I would be just as happy to see professional cane rodmaking draggedback up towhere it was 75 years ago, an honest blue collar craft.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry,your point is correct, these would have most likely been done on anNClathe as this factory was well set up but the point I meant to makewasthese high population countrys with low wages are looking for laborintensive work because that's their advantage. Making rods wouldbejust aseasy.Actually it's just occurred to me while writing this that the laborintensiveness is to our advantage too no matter if you're anamateur or proprovided you like making them. from a pro's point of view you are largely protected domesticallybecausemost people aren't interested in true craftsmanship thus keepingcompetition low enough so everybody is more or less friendly to oneanother. Competition is not so hot the prices the rods sell for areok, notgood but ok again provided you like making rods. from an amateur point of view new rods are rare enough thatthereis realpride of ownership in making them and everybody sooner or laterwill beasked to make rods for others, what you then do is up to you andofcourseassuming you don't make a complete dog's breakfast of the jobyou'll havesome pretty decent rods for your trouble. Larry has made an excellent point re flys. Sam in case anybodyhasn't seenhis work ties terrific flys but no matter what Sam uses or howquickly heties them he'll never compete with African or Asian flys for volumesalesbecause the imports are just good enough to be good enough as itwere andmuch much cheaper.Now Sam's a good guy and has a reputation so I guess he'll alwayshave amarket but what about a startup? The bamboo rod scene as it is right now should remain a cottageindustryeven if that means the pros see business going wanting, I'm certainif it'sdeveloped too far the soul of bamboo rods will dissolve before oureyes.Sorry to put it that way but that is after all what bamboo rods areabout,nobody waxes lyrical about a piece of plastic no matter how good. andenergy into it you deserve the benefits but keep the design to yourselfand take it to the grave. I must confess that I have no idea as to why Terry likes to chidearmaturesabout hand planing. Armatures wont be competition to pros in anynoticeableway but would be if everybody took his advise and milled instead.Presumably it's all in fun and possibly also instructional.I personally like hand planing, just like I like to chiseldovetails indraws rather than block and glue the corners or rout them but I'mnotmaking a lot of cabinets or rods just now however I can see the dayI'llget a mill and I wont think twice about it apart from the expense.The way the blanks are made isn't the issue, it's the attitude.There arethe industrialists on the list and there are craftsmen on the listandthere is as much blurring of the lines between the two as there isin theline dividing pros and amateurs.There are plenty on the list who would find milling a rod to be asrepugnant others may find planing, really, simple as that, nohiddenagenda. Fair dinkum as we say here in the Antipodes. I'm happy to say finally I've said my last word on this subject. IfIhaven't made my point by now I never will. Tony At 11:36 PM 1/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:Tony,ferrules are a bad example, they can be produced on an nc lathewithout anymanual input so there is no advantage to having them made inChina.Products thatare labour intensive find opportunities off shore.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms andweedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 14:28:17 2001 f02KSGa06204 Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal - the end Carsten,you have no concept of manufacturing at all. If, for instance, you have acompany thatmanufactures widgets and you find that the demand for widgets increases tothe point when youfeel you will not be able to keep up with demand you then have to order morewidget makingmachines.If a rodmaker produces rods with a beveller and finds he cannot keep up thenhe gets anotherbeveller and can add to them as demanded by salesHand planers cannot grow exra hands, they are stuck with what they haveand in the hole!Hand planing is easy, it is only hand planers that try to make it sounddifficult for reasons ofself promotion. When Richard Nantel contacted me off list before making hisfirst rod and hesuggested it might be too difficult for him, I told him to take what he readson the list with agrain of salt. A week or so later he called me up and proudly annouced hehad glued up hisfirst rod and I asked him if it was difficult and he replied, " I cannot see whatall the fussis about," and we both laughed. Richard is now making Salmon rods with thosesoft littlecomputery hands!I have got lazy and have lost much of the interest so getting on the listoccasionally gets megoing again.TerryCarsten Jorgensen wrote: Hi Terry - a few brief comments. I think we have to find anotherdead horse to beat now. Carsten,George ginked himself because he had never worked with cane, did notunderstand thequality required in a cane rod and had probably never really seen a goodcane rod. Nope, Terry. He tried and failed in inventing yesterdays technology. Thecane rod businessisn+t that hard to find out - You just read a book or ten, and You will finddozens ofways to do the thing. This aint harder to learn than knitting You can have aweek-end classand wind up with a tomato stick. You dont have to work full time for yearsin order to learnrodmaking. He was also ripped off in the purchase of a junky milling machine that hecompletelyrebuilt and still did not produce. You got it ' he failed to re-invent the technology. Ok, there is not the market out there that there was, but there sure is alarger marketthan can be handled by hand planers. Says who? You persist in telling so, but NOBODY has proven it so far. Onthe contrary,the guys with the working bevellers etc. has more or less given it up. Whatdoes thatindicate??? Why do you guys keep going on about "mass market"?there is no mass market in fly fishing. Now that is nonsense. Flyfishing in US is a HUGE business - open Your eyesand notice the amount of advertizing from Sage etc. Their monthly PR-budgets are larger thanany yearly turn- over You could ever hope for. Same goes for Europe- we too buy Sage etc. There is a difference between "mass production"and "production" Yes, and so what? What is important is Your definition of the words.So when Your beveller is really up and going, You will make 150 rods perannum instead of 30 if You were handplaning? Boy, are You really goingto revolutionize the FF market place. Sage etc. are really going to feelthreatened...... Wake up Terry. Reality is that You'd prob. never be ableto raise the necessary capital to grow beyond cottage industry, beveller ornot, without raising loans in the 100.000 USD class. Are You ready forthat?Or do You just want to be the lonely craftsman, sweating along all dayat his planin... ups, sorry, I meant beveller. Don't try to tell me the handplaners are doing it for fun, just look at thenumber oflist members that add a fancy rodmaking company name to their posting. Well, terry, I am a handplaner. I do it for fun AND for the money. I don'tuse more timeon rodmaking than is fun, I say no to new orders or back log if too muchtime is spendon rodmaking.. I make my living running a truck-for-hire business, hopefullywith an eyeto the net result. Can't see why I should not do the same when rodmaking,so I chargewhatever the market is ready to pay. If. the market would not meet mydemand, I'dmake fever rods. surely would not make 15 rods per year and give awaythe 10 foralmost free. If this makes me a handplaning pro, then be it. I prefer to callmyselfa rodmaker amateur. If I am a dreamer, then we are all dreamers, Sure we're dreamers. Nobody but an enthusiast and dreamer would evereven considermaking a living from rodmaking. You just ask Orvis, Hardy etc. They did it and abandoned it at first given opportunity. Sorry to splinter Your dreams, Terry, bu cane rodmaking is, alass, only foramateurs anddreamers. But boy is it fun.' regards, Carsten Terry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Terry You are absolutely right - the makers of today have created the"exclusivity"that surrounds cane. Reason? Very simple: Not You nor anybody elsehavesucceeded in mass producing cane rods for the last couple of decades. Why, one might ask. Well, George has Ginked himself out of business,You have produced a lot of opinions, and very little more. Those whoknows the business, Winston and Orvis and Hardy, seem to haveabandonedthe mass produced cane rod. Could it be because the market for themassproduced cane rod is nothing but a dream for a few forlorn souls. Couldit bethat the only realists are us handplaners, who do it for the fun, and theprofessional productionists are nothing but people who dream of thegloriouspast and think that if they re-invent the technology of yesterday,history willrepeat it self. If You believe in that, You will believe anything, includingSanta. Perhaps "the exclusivity" is the only way for cane rods to survive - wedamned surehaven't seen anything to contradict it. Sorry Terry, You have good ideas, but the hey-days of cane are over.Whydon't You just be realistic and face it. Return to the cottage industry,as You callit, make some rods for the fun of it. Or go on making dream rods ondream bevellers regards, Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: T. Ackland Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 3:32 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal I know all the threads about having rods etc. made offshore cheaplywas a windup for my benefit.Take Nike as a famous example, they have all their production madein low paycountries, yet do you see the benefit of this when you purchase theirproduct?Back in the days when cane ruled, cane was everywhere, there wasno exclusiveelement to them at all. OK a good one was always expensive but theycould bepurchased off the shelf without having to wait 6 months. Theexclusivity of canehas been created by the makers of today because they make themso bloody slowly.Look at the reference to "Blue Collar" from a professional rodmakergives a clueto just what the mindset is amoung the fraternity. I have seen thisatgatherings, guys walking aroud like matinee stars because they havesold a rodor two.I would be just as happy to see professional cane rodmaking draggedback up towhere it was 75 years ago, an honest blue collar craft.Terry Tony Young wrote: Terry,your point is correct, these would have most likely been done on anNClathe as this factory was well set up but the point I meant to makewasthese high population countrys with low wages are looking for laborintensive work because that's their advantage. Making rods wouldbe just aseasy.Actually it's just occurred to me while writing this that the laborintensiveness is to our advantage too no matter if you're anamateur or proprovided you like making them. from a pro's point of view you are largely protected domesticallybecausemost people aren't interested in true craftsmanship thus keepingcompetition low enough so everybody is more or less friendly tooneanother. Competition is not so hot the prices the rods sell for areok, notgood but ok again provided you like making rods. from an amateur point of view new rods are rare enough thatthere is realpride of ownership in making them and everybody sooner or laterwill beasked to make rods for others, what you then do is up to you andof courseassuming you don't make a complete dog's breakfast of the jobyou'll havesome pretty decent rods for your trouble. Larry has made an excellent point re flys. Sam in case anybodyhasn't seenhis work ties terrific flys but no matter what Sam uses or howquickly heties them he'll never compete with African or Asian flys for volumesalesbecause the imports are just good enough to be good enough as itwere andmuch much cheaper.Now Sam's a good guy and has a reputation so I guess he'll alwayshave amarket but what about a startup? The bamboo rod scene as it is right now should remain a cottageindustryeven if that means the pros see business going wanting, I'm certainif it'sdeveloped too far the soul of bamboo rods will dissolve before oureyes.Sorry to put it that way but that is after all what bamboo rods areabout,nobody waxes lyrical about a piece of plastic no matter how good. andenergy into it you deserve the benefits but keep the design to yourselfand take it to the grave. I must confess that I have no idea as to why Terry likes to chidearmaturesabout hand planing. Armatures wont be competition to pros in anynoticeableway but would be if everybody took his advise and milled instead.Presumably it's all in fun and possibly also instructional.I personally like hand planing, just like I like to chisel dovetails indraws rather than block and glue the corners or rout them but I'mnotmaking a lot of cabinets or rods just now however I can see the dayI'llget a mill and I wont think twice about it apart from the expense.The way the blanks are made isn't the issue, it's the attitude.There arethe industrialists on the list and there are craftsmen on the listandthere is as much blurring of the lines between the two as there isin theline dividing pros and amateurs.There are plenty on the list who would find milling a rod to be asrepugnant others may find planing, really, simple as that, no hiddenagenda. Fair dinkum as we say here in the Antipodes. I'm happy to say finally I've said my last word on this subject. If Ihaven't made my point by now I never will. Tony At 11:36 PM 1/1/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:Tony,ferrules are a bad example, they can be produced on an nc lathewithout anymanual input so there is no advantage to having them made inChina.Products thatare labour intensive find opportunities off shore.Terry /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms andweedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 2 14:50:48 2001 f02Koma07217 Subject: Re: *WARNING* More mass apeal Well, I'll try this again. Pushed the wrong button and sent it into file 13, Ithink. I spent my Christmas vacation in Arkansas, in the middle of an ice storm. Itstarted raining Christmas eve with the temperature hovering around 20degrees. By Christmas night, the ice on the trees was so heavy that limbsbreaking sounded like gunfire. So many limbs were breaking that it soundedlike a war was going on in the woods. By Christmas night, trees were falling. Smith and some of Oklahoma was out. So many trees fell across power linesthat there was more wire on the ground than on the poles. Tuesday andTuesday night we spent without heat or electric power; temperature about25 degrees. Some National Guard and Polk county road people cut their waythrough and took us to town Wednesday about 2PM. We spent Thursday andFriday with my Aunt; she had natural gas heat but no electric power. Theroads were clear enough by Saturday to get back to the cabin. We startedhome Sunday morning; it wa!!!s snowing. Most of the power lines around Mena were down because of falling trees butin the farming area below De Queen it was also down where there were notrees. The accumulation of ice from the storm was so heavy that I saw amile long stretch of power line in the Red River valley where every pole hadbeen snapped like a match stick from the weight of the ice on the wire alone. Regards,Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com hexagon@odyssee.net wrote:Tony,don't tell me you are not having fun? Certainly beats just receiving " testing,ignore" which seems to have been what rodmakers had degenerated into.Anyway, you bugger, you are not getting the last word. It is freezing coldhereand snowing, if you really want to get up my nose just mention beaches andsunshine, stupid rods wont do it.TerryTony Young wrote: Terry Even I think this has gone on a bit. At 09:32 AM 1/2/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:I know all the threads about having rods etc. made offshore cheaply was awindup for my benefit. It most certainly was not a wind up. The last part re. lots of people LIKEhand planing was pointed as sharply as I could. Not everybody has the samegoals. If that sounds angry or short it's not intended that way. Take Nike as a famous example, they have all their production made in lowpaycountries, yet do you see the benefit of this when you purchase theirproduct? Nike is a very good example in fact. They have a factory in Indonesia andI'm possibly wrong here but I think the factory gets $12 a prand it's possible the factory has to source and supply the materials. AgainI may be wrong there but regardless it isn't very much.Now, do you see the benefit when you purchase their product? Thatdependson how you look at benefit.If you are an athlete maybe due to the huge R&D shoe companies spend you*may* have better shoes as time goes by.If you're a punter looking at running shoes but you'd be just as well offwearing gym boots for all the athletic use you give your feet BUT in orderto be cool you can't wear gym boots, you need Reebok because RodStewartwears them, or Nike because you never quite know when you will be calledupon to "just do it" like the track stars do.Why is it cool? Because the advertising says it is. How come they canspendso much on advertising? They buy cheap and set a high price point, fromthere it's profit.Do the consumers want cheaper shoes if that meant a halt to advertisingthere for they wouldn't feel like Rod Stewart or a sweating heavy breathingtrack star?Are you kidding? No way. Image is what these guys sell, image is whatpeople are buying and the shoes are just the medium to show the imagepeople want to project about themselves.Then again, maybe you just need shoes and you like the look of them . How about a company with cash make a foray into bamboo rods. I'd think$50FOB is on the high side to make in a low paying country.This company, let's call them "The Evening Hatch" have a thousand bamboorods and decide to do an advertising campaign lasting 12 months involvingfull colour adds featuring the fisherman of your choice. A guy is on TVtelling everybody just how awfully nice bamboo rods are and the nostalgiafactor would be layed on thickly, you know Grandad as a boy with some ofthe buttons on the back flap of his bib and brace pants fishing on asparkling stream with his faithful setter by his side and a brace of fish,maybe not a brace of fish, could be a bit sensitive. Time passes and thatsame rod is passed on to the grand kid when he was the same age Grandadwaswhen he was given his first SPLIT CANE ROD and gee it's as fine today as itwas when Grandad was given it.I can see it now, misty eyed you see you too can have a working family airloom for just $399.50. That price may be on the low side so be ready toraise it a bit just to give it some credence.It'd be so easy I'm scaring myself. Back in the days when cane ruled, cane was everywhere, there was noexclusiveelement to them at all. OK a good one was always expensive but theycould bepurchased off the shelf without having to wait 6 months. The exclusivityof canehas been created by the makers of today because they make them sobloodyslowly. Back in the old days there was no choice if you dismissed greenheart. Nowyou can buy a graphite rod off the shelf without waiting 5 mins. Theexclusivity of bamboo is because the punters expect a rod to be jewelry asmuch as a fishing rod, I don't have to tell you this takes time. If thefinish is of no concern you could always buy a used rod you like. Look at the reference to "Blue Collar" from a professional rodmaker givesa clueto just what the mindset is amoung the fraternity. I have seen this atgatherings, guys walking aroud like matinee stars because they have soldarodor two.I would be just as happy to see professional cane rodmaking dragged backup towhere it was 75 years ago, an honest blue collar craft.Terry It passes in time but it's just as bad to have to suffer the flames andspitballs of outrageous comments,To sit and wonder, why am I wasting my time here, before my PC whenthereis much to do?I tarry over long, I'm away. Tony /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Jan 2 14:50:57 2001 f02Koua07225 VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Carsten_J=F8rgensen'?=" Subject: RE: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal - the end Richard is now making Salmon rods with those soft little computery hands! I would gladly share my hand cream formulation but it is secret, havingtaking me months to develop. ;-) Richard from k5vkq@ix.netcom.com Tue Jan 2 14:56:45 2001 f02Kuia07847 Subject: RE: Rod wrapper Works for me also. Onisk5vkq@ix.netcom.com dhaftel@att.com wrote:In most cases I'm a firm believer in the KISS rule. I have been wrapping byhand, using a fly tying bobbin with a ceramic insert and a wood cradle thatI made. I get nice, fuzz-free wraps every time. Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: Rod wrapper All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrentlylooking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. My questionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop and theplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard with somescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn from darrell@rockclimbing.org Tue Jan 2 15:21:43 2001 f02LLga09245 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) Subject: Looking for a 6 ft 3wt rod taper, anybody have a recommendation Hello gang, I have a customer who wants a 6' 3wt rod. Can you recommend a taper forhim?He wants something even lighter than a PHY Midge or a 193 Garrison. How about Wayne's Cattanach 6' 3wt taper... Any feedback on this rodtaperscasting and fishability? Thanks, Darrell Leewww.vfish.net from briansr@point-net.com Tue Jan 2 15:29:12 2001 f02LTBa09805 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:29:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper Shawn if you REALLY want a cheapo rig.Buy a thread tensioner from a sewingmachineAttach it to a 1/2in X4inx 10in piece of hard wood (or pine ) andmake two M (the u in the middle will support the rod) shaped supports forthe blank ,and you have a wrapper that will do all wraps except for fansyweaves.I've been using this since 1978 and have found it more thansatisfactory.No amount of fancy equip't will replace skill.Cheers Brian---- - Original Message ----- Subject: Rod wrapper All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. My questionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop and theplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard with somescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn from dickay@alltel.net Tue Jan 2 15:30:09 2001 f02LU8a09942 srv.alltel.net Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:30:05 -0600 Subject: Re: Mass apeal Terry, Would you work for the wages of 75 years ago today. Would youworkin the conditions of 75 years ago today. NO!! You would not. That is whyonly the Third World Countries are capable of mass producing low cost canerods. Those people are willing to work for those wages and in thoseconditions. They don't have OHSA, the unions, and the Labor Dept. lookingover their shoulders all the time. Thus wages are low, the conditions arelousy, and the workers have no rights. Work or get out! These people areglad to have a job so that they don't have to pick through the dump fortheir food. That is why I feel that low cost mass produced rods will come from Third World Nations where they have lots of people willing to have anyjob.Dick Fuhrman from briansr@point-net.com Tue Jan 2 15:32:51 2001 f02LWpa10202 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:32:48 -0500 "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Carsten_J=F8rgensen'?=" Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal - the end Richardyes in NO WAY REVEAL THAT YOU ARE USING ALBOLENE to keep those handsSOsmooth!!!!Cheers Brian----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal - the end Richard is now making Salmon rods with those soft little computeryhands! I would gladly share my hand cream formulation but it is secret, havingtaking me months to develop. ;-) Richard from cadams46@juno.com Tue Jan 2 15:33:35 2001 f02LXZa10301 16:33:13 EST Subject: (Not rodbuilding) Nylon Line Just got a box of junk given to me today. Most all the fishing relatedjunk family and friends find gets funneled down to me. But anyway I havea question not sure just what kind of answer I am after. I have a redwooden spool of "Newton's Grey Airline" its called. Cravenettewaterproofed Nylon Casting line, says its Braided of DU PONT nylon. 50yards of 25 lbs. Price was $2.50. Seems a little pricey. I'd beinterested if anyone e.g. the older folks of the list know anything aboutthis. Looks pretty interesting the top few winds are pretty browned andaged but under them you can see it looks brand new. ThanksSincerely,C.R. Adams from bob@downandacross.com Tue Jan 2 16:07:26 2001 f02M7Pa11512 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper Hi Shawn:I got one from Cabella's for about $9. It works, but I think that a $100 wrapper would be worth it if it does a better job. I wish someone who has one would reply because I have thought about this a lot recently.Best regards,Bob(Please no, more money better item thingee on this one.) Bob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellular716- 836-2229 faxbob@downandacross.com from anglport@con2.com Tue Jan 2 16:23:02 2001 f02MN1a12060 Subject: Review Rodmakers from andrew_harsanyi@ibi.com Tue Jan 2 16:41:58 2001 f02Mfva12796 0500 Subject: RE: Rod wrapper I haven't made that many rods but I am pretty anal about wraps (ask Dennis).I tried to make a tensioning device with springs, etc. and found that if it isattached (ie not free like a hanging bobbin) it makes doing good wraps moredifficult (for me at least). I have to be able to take the whole contraption andbe able to wind forward or reverse as well as turn the rod itself for bestresults (like when backing off to make adjustments or just starting a wrap).So I was trying to make it attachable with a quick release/reattach to therod wrapping jig frame. It just got too bulky and kludgey so I ended up tossingthe whole contraption (minimal monetary loss but quite frustrating). I still use Dennis's bobbin approach, though I have purchased a heavier bobbinthat has adjustable tension. I use gravity with the bobbin for the most part(letting it hang below the blank), maybe sometimes a book or something toanchor the bobbin but still let it spin without touching the silk (to avoidfuzzies). High tension does not seem to be that important (and might evenbe bad). I am toying with the idea of making an easy on/off mount for thisbobbin as it has the tensioning built in, but gravity is really just fine. Makesure to keep the bobbin from spinning as it hangs. Of course without it beinganchored, you do have to keep pulling the bobbin down as you wrap each timethe bobbin approaches the blank. Also, you should make sure the opening ofthe bobbin is very smooth and doesn't fray the silk. Bottom line, though? Plenty of light and patience. Daylight is best. It isalways amazing how daylight can show flaws that otherwise go unnoticed. Atnight I use a halogen light (very hot, but bright). And a magnifying glass asalready mentioned by someone does help as well. I have one of those thathave a round light around the magnifying glass. It is on an adjustable armthat is attached to a heavy stand (the ones that clamp to a shelf are a painand make a big crash when they fall). Andy -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Rod wrapper Shawn,I use an old Herters spool tensioning device (much like the Thompsonreproduction that Russ Gooding sells) and hold the rod in my hands. I alsouse a 3x magnifying lamp.I found that the washer type tension devices tended to worsen the"fuzzies" on the thread.And no wrapping stand has ever worked well for me. Just my $.02 Harry Shawn Pineo wrote: All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. My questionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop and theplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard with somescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from jmpio@nhbm.com Tue Jan 2 16:57:50 2001 f02Mvna13475 Subject: Power wrapping/poly spraying Given all the talk about production lately, I just had to ask this question.An acquaintance who finishes an awful lot of rods, graphite mostly, but afair number of bamboo refinishes, claims he wraps most rods, including cane,in about 20 minutes per rod. He finishes in just a couple of hours. So Iwanted to ask all you guys about his methods, see whether we or at least Imight me missing something here. He claims to wrap a rod in 20 minutes on his power wrapping equipment whichhe first bought for doing graphite but says works just dandy on cane. Anycane makers out there use powered wrapping equipment? Any reason notto? As to finishing, he prefers to spray. He masks the ferrules, the coats dryvery quickly so he does several in a day, then he cleans the guides, beforedoing a last coat or two on the wraps with a brush. Polishes it up, and Ihave to say, his finishes look great. Anyone out there spraying theirfinishes? Helmsman comes in a spray can I saw down at the Home Depot thisweekend, was wondering whether that might work, or whether some HVLPgearmight do the job. from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 17:27:26 2001 f02NRPa14578 Subject: Re: (Not rodbuilding) Nylon Line It was popular on multiplying casting reels and brands of braided nylon isstill available cadams46@juno.com wrote: Just got a box of junk given to me today. Most all the fishing relatedjunk family and friends find gets funneled down to me. But anyway I havea question not sure just what kind of answer I am after. I have a redwooden spool of "Newton's Grey Airline" its called. Cravenettewaterproofed Nylon Casting line, says its Braided of DU PONT nylon. 50yards of 25 lbs. Price was $2.50. Seems a little pricey. I'd beinterested if anyone e.g. the older folks of the list know anything aboutthis. Looks pretty interesting the top few winds are pretty browned andaged but under them you can see it looks brand new. ThanksSincerely,C.R. Adams from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Tue Jan 2 17:27:47 2001 f02NRga14630 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper currently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. My questionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why? Shawn: I purchased the rod wrapper from Russ at Goldenwitch. I like it fine, andto me one of the big advantages is if I get tired during the middle ofmaking a wrap, and if I have my thread tensioned properly I can take a breakand the thread stays on the rod where I left off without loosing tension. I also got the turning motor attachment that goes with it, and in about 1second you can be set up and turning the wraps. No commercial interest, blah blah blah, just a satisfied Goldenwitchcustomer. Joe from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Jan 2 17:31:48 2001 f02NVla15067 VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Carsten_J=F8rgensen'?=" Subject: Was mass apeal - the end, is now keeping it interesting I have got lazy and have lost much of the interest so gettingon the list occasionally gets megoing again. Terry, to be frank, I don't know how people who build rods commerciallykeep up an interest. Generally, commercial builders will have a handful ofdifferent rods offered to the public. So, they produce blank after blank ofthe same taper. Also, the best way to make the process efficient is tobuild a few of one model at a time. Unless the builder can find some way toimprove the process and keep it interesting, it must be really difficultnot to burn out. Although I love the process of rod building, I REALLY look forward totrying out tapers to see how they will cast. So, I've never built the samerod twice. The list of rods I've built so far spans the spectrum from 6'8"3-wts to 12 ft spey rods. The list of rods I plan to build this winterinclude a Charles Ritz taper, a Powell, a Driggs, and a Dickerson. Heck,I'm all over the map when it comes to tapers. If I were to be asked to make four of a certain rod to sell, I'd likelycounting the minutes until the last one is finished. I know a few excellentfly tyers who ventured into commercial tying. After their first order often dozen Adams, they developed a pretty serious dislike for commercialtying. Richard from teekay35@interlynx.net Tue Jan 2 17:35:20 2001 f02NZKa15386 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper I use a Thompson rod wrapping device that I got in a "grab bag" fromHerters 30 to 35 years ago. I took the "U" shaped wire supports off itbecause they only get in the way. Tension is applied only to the threadspool, so there is no fraying of the thread. Some where I've seen a modernbrass copy of the Thompson, but the old one works great if you can findone. ----------From: brian sturrock Cc: rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Rod wrapperDate: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 4:23 PM Shawn if you REALLY want a cheapo rig.Buy a thread tensioner from asewingmachineAttach it to a 1/2in X4inx 10in piece of hard wood (or pine ) andmake two M (the u in the middle will support the rod) shaped supports forthe blank ,and you have a wrapper that will do all wraps except for fansyweaves.I've been using this since 1978 and have found it more thansatisfactory.No amount of fancy equip't will replace skill.Cheers Brian---- - Original Message -----From: "Shawn Pineo" Sent: January 2, 2001 2:21 PMSubject: Rod wrapper All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. Myquestionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop andtheplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard withsomescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn from cmj@post11.tele.dk Tue Jan 2 17:41:05 2001 f02Nf4a15738 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 00:41:03 +0100 Subject: Mass apeal - the end - finally f02Nf5a15739 Hi Terry. Lets finish this once and for all Carsten,you have no concept of manufacturing at all. If, for instance, you have acompany thatmanufactures widgets and you find that the demand for widgets increasesto the point when youfeel you will not be able to keep up with demand you then have to ordermore widget makingmachines.If a rodmaker produces rods with a beveller and finds he cannot keep upthen he gets anotherbeveller and can add to them as demanded by sales. Perhaps I have no concept of manufacturing, You be the judge of that. What Ido have a conceptof, is business, the art of making a company grow from nil to larger. This iswhere You failand, should You try, probably would gink Yourself, I fear. Let me explain: Obviously You think, that if a demand exists, You just fill it by increasing Youroutput. WRONG.The lonely craftsman can only do so much, then comes other roles to fill:Doing the accounting,buying stuff, selling stuff, hiring and running the employees. You eventuallyhave to havemore room to produce, stock Your rawmaterial etc. etc. Suddenly theconcept of manufacturing isbut a smaller part of the daily running the shop. As You increase the output,the rest of thedifferent things to do increase out of proportions, until You realise, You arenot a craftsmananymore, but a managing director with no time at all for producing. So Youhire a foremanetc. etc. All of this costs money, faster than You can earn it, so You have to aquirecapital. Lawyersand bankers, bookkeepers and all the other "necessary" people startinterfering. Still lesstime for producing. And the marketing - You just hire a PR company for that- money, moneymoney. Not yet earned, so have to be borrowed. Terry, this is the real world, this is where You risk ginking Yourself. The leap from beingthe lonely craftsman by the beveller to being the boss of a company. I fearthat is whathappened to poor George. He ginked himself. He thought it was only aquestion of buyinga beveller and whammo, of f You go. Well, he found out the hard way thatthere was more to it than a big mouth and a beveller. Gink. But still, go for it if You must. But don't kid Yourself into believing that all ittakesis the ability to make a rod. That is the least of it. First time You considerhiring somehelp, do Yourself the favor of getting some professional help as how to makethe leap. Hand planers cannot grow exra hands, they are stuck with what they haveand in the hole!Hand planing is easy, it is only hand planers that try to make it sounddifficult for reasons ofself promotion. I agree completely. Even I learned how plane a rod, although it is a fact Inever caredmuch for woodwork at school and did not use a plane for the next 25 years,until thatdarned rodmaking forced me to. When Richard Nantel contacted me off list before making his first rod andhesuggested it might be too difficult for him, I told him to take what he readson the list with agrain of salt. A week or so later he called me up and proudly annouced hehad glued up hisfirst rod and I asked him if it was difficult and he replied, " I cannot seewhat all the fussis about," and we both laughed. Richard is now making Salmon rods withthose soft littlecomputery hands! Thats the way to go. DO IT, MAKE A ROD. A piece of advice I have more thanoftenshared with wannabees on this list. All that talk of "gathering information" or"have spendthe last Year tooling up". As if making rods demanded the genius of anEinstein and theR&D capacities of General Electric. For chrissake, we're talking tomatosticks, notnuclear science. It is only if we want to turn pro that there is more to it I have got lazy and have lost much of the interest so getting on the listoccasionally gets megoing again. And I have enjoyed reading Your posts, as usual. Keep it coming regards, Carsten from tjwilhelm@carolina.rr.com Tue Jan 2 17:49:30 2001 f02NnTa16078 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 18:49:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper Shawn, I picked up a Sully last year and I'm real happy with it. What I like themost is that the rod is held firmly in the cradle and the spring wire willkeep tension on the thread. That allows me to UNwrap the rod when I haveproblems without losing any tension. Sometimes I seem to go in reversemoreoften then forward. My only problem with it, and it is probably something I could fine tune, isthat the tensioning devices aren't that sensitive. I may look at it laterand see if I could modify it to put tension on the spool instead of on thethread. Tim Wilhelm ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Rod wrapper All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. My questionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop and theplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard with somescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 17:54:02 2001 f02Ns1a16404 Subject: Re: Mass apeal Dickthere is a difference between reasonably priced well made off the shelf canerods and what the list call "low cost mass produced cane fly rods" this is thelists interpretation, not mine.How about some pity for the poor hand planers working for $10 an hour withnomedicare and vacation. You do not have to look abroad to see poverty!Terry Dick & Kathy Fuhrman wrote: Terry, Would you work for the wages of 75 years ago today. Would youworkin the conditions of 75 years ago today. NO!! You would not. That is whyonly the Third World Countries are capable of mass producing low costcanerods. Those people are willing to work for those wages and in thoseconditions. They don't have OHSA, the unions, and the Labor Dept. lookingover their shoulders all the time. Thus wages are low, the conditions arelousy, and the workers have no rights. Work or get out! These people areglad to have a job so that they don't have to pick through the dump fortheir food. That is why I feel that low cost mass produced rods will come from Third World Nations where they have lots of people willing to have anyjob.Dick Fuhrman from jojo@ipa.net Tue Jan 2 18:03:22 2001 f0303La16787 Subject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Great! Another large, dead rodent sacrificed upon the altar of sustenance.Good to know Arkansas isn't the only place with "connoisseur" gluttons. M-D ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal Shawn Only reason I mentioned Santa is that I always sleep when he bringsthe presents. Would not dream of denying the existence of the Easter Bunny -had one for dinner last year around that special time of the year.No C&R politics for bunnies - he he. regards,Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: Shawn Pineo Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:46 PMSubject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Carsten,I am greatly offended! What is the big idea of bringingSANTA into this??What now you expect us to believe santa isn't real?? Just who put thatlathe under mytree then , huh?? ;^) Next thing you know you will be trying to tell methe Easterbunny doesn't exist and won't be dropping off my rod wrapper when heleaves my kidstheir eggs?? ;^)Shawn from builtone@hotmail.com Tue Jan 2 18:21:12 2001 f030LBa17229 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 16:21:07 -0800 Wed, 03 Jan 2001 00:21:07 GMT Subject: Re: Rod wrapper FILETIME=[1101C7B0:01C0751B] Hi Bob, Mark that a someone recently. Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer athttp://explorer.msn.com from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Jan 2 18:25:32 2001 be forged)) f030PVa17471 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:20:03 -0600 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper I started wrapping in the early 1950's, using a plain vanilla Herter'swrapper. I still use it ! Now at 68, I'm looking for "A" silk, as my eyesare no longer capable of seeing "00" ! I have tho't of a magnifier, buthaven't seen one that seemed very good ! GMA from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Jan 2 18:27:12 2001 be forged)) f030RBa17639 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:21:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper What sort of a magnifier do you have Harry ? GMA from cmj@post11.tele.dk Tue Jan 2 18:30:59 2001 f030Uwa17942 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 01:30:58 +0100 =?iso-8859-1?Q?Carsten_J=F8rgensen?= Subject: was Mass apeal - now glutton f030Uxa17943 Jo-jo I'll let You in on a secret, but PLEASE don't tell anyone I said so: Peter was a fisherman, and Jesus prob. ATE the little critters.I know, I know, it just might be hear-say, but ask Harry yourself,he is learned about these things. regards, Carsten ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Great! Another large, dead rodent sacrificed upon the altar of sustenance.Good to know Arkansas isn't the only place with "connoisseur" gluttons. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:06 AMSubject: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal Shawn Only reason I mentioned Santa is that I always sleep when he bringsthe presents. Would not dream of denying the existence of the Easter Bunny -had one for dinner last year around that special time of the year.No C&R politics for bunnies - he he. regards,Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: Shawn Pineo Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:46 PMSubject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Carsten,I am greatly offended! What is the big idea of bringingSANTA into this??What now you expect us to believe santa isn't real?? Just who put thatlathe under mytree then , huh?? ;^) Next thing you know you will be trying to tell methe Easterbunny doesn't exist and won't be dropping off my rod wrapper when heleaves my kidstheir eggs?? ;^)Shawn from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 18:33:51 2001 f030Xoa18161 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Was mass apeal - the end, is now keeping it interesting Richard,It would be interesting to compile a list of guys that tried to make a careerwith a set of forms and had to give up. I think you have to make itinteresting yourun out of ideas. I think experimenting is the key. I feel sorry for guys thatwant to be spoon fed rodmaking because they are missing out all the bestfun.Alcohol can also be a helpThe problem with only making a taper once is that you will never know if thedifferent process you tried actually made a difference.Terry Richard Nantel wrote: I have got lazy and have lost much of the interest so gettingon the list occasionally gets megoing again. Terry, to be frank, I don't know how people who build rods commerciallykeep up an interest. Generally, commercial builders will have a handful ofdifferent rods offered to the public. So, they produce blank after blank ofthe same taper. Also, the best way to make the process efficient is tobuild a few of one model at a time. Unless the builder can find some way toimprove the process and keep it interesting, it must be really difficultnot to burn out. Although I love the process of rod building, I REALLY look forward totrying out tapers to see how they will cast. So, I've never built the samerod twice. The list of rods I've built so far spans the spectrum from 6'8"3-wts to 12 ft spey rods. The list of rods I plan to build this winterinclude a Charles Ritz taper, a Powell, a Driggs, and a Dickerson. Heck,I'm all over the map when it comes to tapers. If I were to be asked to make four of a certain rod to sell, I'd likelycounting the minutes until the last one is finished. I know a few excellentfly tyers who ventured into commercial tying. After their first order often dozen Adams, they developed a pretty serious dislike for commercialtying. Richard from bob@downandacross.com Tue Jan 2 18:35:35 2001 f030ZYa18361 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:29:28 -0500 Subject: Re: basic book --=====================_9707676==_.ALT Wayne Cattanach's revised Handcrafting Bamboo Fly Rods. It is as good as it gets. $40 at Amazon.com. It's straight forward and has great tapers. I would have recommended the Howell book for tapers alone, but it seems like they are all posted somewhere or other. Then get Howell, Maurer/Elser, and Gould. Get Garrison when you feel like you haven't used your slide rule in a while. I realize that many people are loyal to Garrison and his high standards and attention to detail, but I don't feel that it is essential reading for someone who wants to build rods anymore. I read the library's copy of Garrison almost 8 years ago, and I was afraid to pick up a plane until I read Wayne's book and saw his video. The book by George Barnes is probably the most simplified of all that I have read (and great), but I doubt you will find it. I hope I don't get too beat up on for these comments. Be nice guys.Best regards,Bob At 05:28 PM 1/2/2001 -0700, Burke Taft wrote:I have a favor to ask - I wonder if you could recommend a basic book on theconstruction of bamboo fly rods? I would be interested in information about bamboo fly rods, how they aremade, where I might begin to get the tools and materials to construct abamboo fly rod. I tied flies and fished for trout as a young adult and aminterested fishing again. I have more than a few flies that I tied thathave never been used - along with some very tattered flies that I caughtsome very nice fish on. Burke TaftLafayette, Colorado Bob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellular716- 836-2229 faxbob@downandacross.com --=====================_9707676==_.ALT Wayne Cattanach's revised Handcrafting Bamboo Fly Rods. It is asgood as it gets. $40 at Amazon.com. It's straight forward and has greattapers. I would have recommended the Howell book for tapers alone, but itseems like they are all posted somewhere or other. Then get Howell, Maurer/Elser, and Gould. Get Garrison when you feel likeyou haven't used your slide rule in a while. I realize that many peopleare loyal to Garrison and his high standards and attention to detail, butI don't feel that it is essential reading for someone who wants to buildrods anymore. I read the library's copy of Garrison almost 8 years ago,and I was afraid to pick up a plane until I read Wayne's book and saw hisvideo. The book by George Barnes is probably the most simplified of allthat I have read (and great), but I doubt you will find it. I hope I don't get too beat up on for these comments. Be nice guys.Best regards,Bob At 05:28 PM 1/2/2001 -0700, Burke Taft wrote:I have a favor to ask - I wonder if you couldrecommend a basic book on theconstruction of bamboo fly rods? I would be interested in information about bamboo fly rods, how theyaremade, where I might begin to get the tools and materials to constructa adult and am thathave never been used - along with some very tattered flies that Icaughtsome very nice fish on. Burke TaftLafayette, Colorado Bob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellular 716- 836-2229 faxbob@downandacross.com --=====================_9707676==_.ALT-- from caneman@clnk.com Tue Jan 2 18:37:53 2001 f030bqa18557 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Power wrapping/poly spraying James,If he can wrap an entire rod in 20 minutes, then maybe we better buy hima blue suit with a big "S" on the chest... a red cape to go with it so hecan fly to all our places and show us how he does this!I've been wrapping cane for 12 years and graphite for a long time beforethat, and I don't think I've ever wrapped a rod in 20 minutes. Maybe I'mslow, but that seems very fast. Even if you could get one guide with 3 or5 wrap tippings wrapped on in 5 minutes (seems fast if your using fine silkand making sure there are NO gaps), then even a 6 foot rod with only 7guides would take 35 minutes... then you have the ferrule wraps... addanother 5 to 10, then the check wrap, another 5... then if you do any kindof signature wrap... well, talking at least an hour, and I still don't wrapa rod in an hour.Like I said, I may be slow, but I wouldn't even try to wrap a rod withthe 6/0 silk I use in 20 minutes... I think it would come out looking prettyshabby, if I did.Can't help you on the spraying. don't do it. Strictly a dipper! *S* Later,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: Power wrapping/poly spraying Given all the talk about production lately, I just had to ask thisquestion.An acquaintance who finishes an awful lot of rods, graphite mostly, but afair number of bamboo refinishes, claims he wraps most rods, includingcane,in about 20 minutes per rod. He finishes in just a couple of hours. So Iwanted to ask all you guys about his methods, see whether we or at least Imight me missing something here. He claims to wrap a rod in 20 minutes on his power wrapping equipmentwhichhe first bought for doing graphite but says works just dandy on cane. Anycane makers out there use powered wrapping equipment? Any reason notto? As to finishing, he prefers to spray. He masks the ferrules, the coats dryvery quickly so he does several in a day, then he cleans the guides, beforedoing a last coat or two on the wraps with a brush. Polishes it up, and Ihave to say, his finishes look great. Anyone out there spraying theirfinishes? Helmsman comes in a spray can I saw down at the Home Depotthisweekend, was wondering whether that might work, or whether some HVLPgearmight do the job. from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Jan 2 18:38:26 2001 be forged)) f030cPa18656 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:32:53 -0600 =?iso-8859-1?Q?Carsten_J=F8rgensen?= Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal - the end I've stayed out of this so far, but can no longer resist ! The day that we take a machine made product, over one made by a realcraftsman, with his hands, will doom that business except for price ! Irefuse to accept price over all else ! GMA from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Jan 2 18:43:43 2001 be forged)) f030hha19086 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:38:16 -0600 Subject: Re: (Not rodbuilding) Nylon Line It makes pretty good backing, for heavier line weights, that is if it's notrotten ! Nylon rots in sunlight !GMA from nobler@satx.rr.com Tue Jan 2 18:51:38 2001 be forged)) f030pca19438 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 19:46:10 -0600 Subject: Re: Power wrapping/poly spraying I can't imagine doing a real quality job, with "A" or "00" silk thread, in20 minutes !GMA from jojo@ipa.net Tue Jan 2 18:59:10 2001 f030x9a19766 Subject: Re: was Mass apeal - now glutton No, I don't think so. He fed all the idolaters, the great unwashed, theinfidels, the fish. I can't find anywhere where it says He actually ate thefish himself. Yes, Peter was a fisherman. He also found a coin in a fishesmouth but that doesn't make him a money changer.Harry, what do you think?M-D ----- Original Message ----- Subject: was Mass apeal - now glutton Jo-jo I'll let You in on a secret, but PLEASE don't tell anyone I said so: Peter was a fisherman, and Jesus prob. ATE the little critters.I know, I know, it just might be hear-say, but ask Harry yourself,he is learned about these things. regards, Carsten ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Great! Another large, dead rodent sacrificed upon the altar of sustenance.Good to know Arkansas isn't the only place with "connoisseur" gluttons. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:06 AMSubject: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal Shawn Only reason I mentioned Santa is that I always sleep when he bringsthe presents. Would not dream of denying the existence of the Easter Bunny -had one for dinner last year around that special time of the year.No C&R politics for bunnies - he he. regards,Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: Shawn Pineo Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:46 PMSubject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Carsten,I am greatly offended! What is the big idea of bringingSANTA into this??What now you expect us to believe santa isn't real?? Just who put thatlathe under mytree then , huh?? ;^) Next thing you know you will be trying to tellmethe Easterbunny doesn't exist and won't be dropping off my rod wrapper when heleaves my kidstheir eggs?? ;^)Shawn from oakmere@carol.net Tue Jan 2 19:09:01 2001 f03190a20186 Subject: RE: Varane Hi Don: I don't know the difference, but I have been using the P&L R10 Varane and Iam very impressed with how it works on bamboo and on "plastic" rodwindings. Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutbeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work); 864-656-7471oakmere@carol.net (home); 864-882-0077 from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Jan 2 19:17:36 2001 f031HZa20506 VL-MS-MR001.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: Was mass appeal - the end, is now keeping it interesting The problem with only making a taper once is that you willnever know if thedifferent process you tried actually made a difference. I agree completely that, if you are trying to see or measure the effects ofone variation in the rod making process, you need to keep all the otherparameters as constant as possible. If you want, for example, to see theeffect of dipping versus impregnation on the action of a rod, you shouldprobably build two identical rods from the same culm in the sameatmospheric conditions, etc. Only the finish should be different. Suchcontrol will lead to improvements in the various materials and techniques. But, once you've settled on tapers you like, have the finishing techniquechosen, and the production method tweaked for precision and efficiency, howdo you crank out ten identical rods to sell and keep it interesting andfulfilling? I have nothing but admiration for those who can do this. To me,they are like monks. Because these rods are to be sold, the builder can'tgive in to the temptation to make rod number four a spiral rod, rod numberfive a quadrate, rod number six with two different tips, etc. When it comes to building rods, I think I have attention deficit disorder. Richard from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Tue Jan 2 19:28:51 2001 f031Soa20827 Subject: Re: was Mass apeal - now glutton Wellllllllll,I've been looking for a good excuse to quote a well-known theologian for along time. He says:"He told us about Christ's disciples being fishermen, and we were left toassume, as my brother and I did, that all first-class fishermen on the Sea ofGalilee were fly fishermen and that John, the favorite, was a dry-flyfishermen." I'm not trying to pull a Reed Curry name that quotation thing here, but Isuspect that almost all of you can name that theologian. -- In truth MD, I'dbewilling to bet that he ate the fish. I know for sure the good book says hefried up a mess on the Sea of Galilee one morning after Easter. Yessir,boiledsome grease, dipped those babies in corn meal and salt, and fried 'em up. Andeverybody knows that it's the cook's sworn responsibility to sample ever'batchwhat comes out of the grease. (Insert a great big Jerry Clower "HAAWWW"here.)I proved worthy of that responsibility at SRG 99. Wish Larry Blan had beenthere.... You know, I've been meaning to eat some trout for a while now. I haven'tkept one in about 5 or 6 years. Every year I say I'm going to. But I haven't.I will, though. Maybe next trip. But it sure is hard to fool with cleaning aslimy old trout when the folks at Haring Pride Catfish down the road bringthegood rev. a 15 lb box of catfish fillets about twice a year. 'Sides, all the Catholics know that Jesus was a good Catholic and only atefish on Fridays. And all the Jews know for sure he didn't eat any pork. Mustabeen fish. Probably greenback fine spot cutthroat Gila Golden trout.... Harry Jojo DeLancier wrote: No, I don't think so. He fed all the idolaters, the great unwashed, theinfidels, the fish. I can't find anywhere where it says He actually ate thefish himself. Yes, Peter was a fisherman. He also found a coin in a fishesmouth but that doesn't make him a money changer.Harry, what do you think?M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Cc: "and Collecting" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:37 PMSubject: was Mass apeal - now glutton Jo-jo I'll let You in on a secret, but PLEASE don't tell anyone I said so: Peter was a fisherman, and Jesus prob. ATE the little critters.I know, I know, it just might be hear-say, but ask Harry yourself,he is learned about these things. regards, Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Cc: and Collecting Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:02 AMSubject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Great! Another large, dead rodent sacrificed upon the altar ofsustenance.Good to know Arkansas isn't the only place with "connoisseur" gluttons. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:06 AMSubject: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal Shawn Only reason I mentioned Santa is that I always sleep when he bringsthe presents. Would not dream of denying the existence of the Easter Bunny -had one for dinner last year around that special time of the year.No C&R politics for bunnies - he he. regards,Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: Shawn Pineo Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:46 PMSubject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Carsten,I am greatly offended! What is the big idea of bringingSANTA into this??What now you expect us to believe santa isn't real?? Just who putthatlathe under mytree then , huh?? ;^) Next thing you know you will be trying to tellmethe Easterbunny doesn't exist and won't be dropping off my rod wrapper whenheleaves my kidstheir eggs?? ;^)Shawn --Harry Boydhttp://HarryBoydbamboorods.eboard.com/ from goodaple@tcac.net Tue Jan 2 19:40:16 2001 f031eGa21256 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license1dc0b39e31881b14e43eebad2dae5270) Subject: Granger Victory taper Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C074F4.707A9D60 Could someone do me a favor and post this or email this taper to me. I =know it's in the Howell book. I for some unknown reason cannot find my =copy. I hope the kids haven't gotten ahold of it!!!!The rod is a 7 =footer. Thanks in advance, Randall G. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C074F4.707A9D60 Could someone do me a favor and post= this taper to me. I know it's in the Howell book. I for some unknown = cannot find my copy. I hope the kids haven't gotten ahold of it!!!!The = 7 footer. Thanks in advance, Randall G. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C074F4.707A9D60-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 19:46:29 2001 f031kTa21699 Subject: Re: Mass apeal - the end - finally Carsten,this is going to be absolutely the last response........unless of course youreply.The most difficult by far part of trying to set up a commercial canerodmaking shop is the bevellersor milling machines. This is what it all hinges on, providing there is in fact amarket. You have tohave a milling machine that works, all the other crap such as purchasing andaccounts are available inthe yellow pages. George did not have a milling machine that worked and Ifound that to be very sadbecause he got conned and it made him ill.Cane is just so difficult to machine, I can remember visiting the REC shop inStow when it was owned equipment he had purchased. Theshop was finished with large glass windows where visitors could peer in in zoofashion and watch therodmaker at work. He had one problem, he could not get the beveller to work,it just wrecked every tipand he gave up in the endWith machinery there is no need for a one man shop, the process is brokendown into tasks. Payne hadone guy milling the cane another just making ferrules and girls wrapping therods.Last year I produced 7 sets of 2 tip blanks finished to size blanks on on mymachine. That is 126strips consistently accurate with no scrap at all. I had a big problem withdust and noise, the dustwas the most deadly and had to be fixed. I have rebuilt much of the machineenclosing the drive andcutter head in a soundproof enclosure with a vacuum. I have also added some features allowing it tobe operated by those with tinted collars.I am not joking, I have come up with a piece of equipment with some seriouspotential which Ishall,..... yawn..... make a start with maybe......Terry Carsten Jorgensen wrote: Hi Terry. Lets finish this once and for all Carsten,you have no concept of manufacturing at all. If, for instance, you havea company thatmanufactures widgets and you find that the demand for widgetsincreases to the point when youfeel you will not be able to keep up with demand you then have to ordermore widget makingmachines.If a rodmaker produces rods with a beveller and finds he cannot keep upthen he gets anotherbeveller and can add to them as demanded by sales. Perhaps I have no concept of manufacturing, You be the judge of that.What I do have a conceptof, is business, the art of making a company grow from nil to larger. Thisis where You failand, should You try, probably would gink Yourself, I fear. Let me explain: Obviously You think, that if a demand exists, You just fill it by increasingYour output. WRONG.The lonely craftsman can only do so much, then comes other roles to fill:Doing the accounting,buying stuff, selling stuff, hiring and running the employees. You eventuallyhave to havemore room to produce, stock Your rawmaterial etc. etc. Suddenly theconcept of manufacturing isbut a smaller part of the daily running the shop. As You increase theoutput, the rest of thedifferent things to do increase out of proportions, until You realise, Youare not a craftsmananymore, but a managing director with no time at all for producing. So Youhire a foremanetc. etc. All of this costs money, faster than You can earn it, so You have to aquirecapital. Lawyersand bankers, bookkeepers and all the other "necessary" people startinterfering. Still lesstime for producing. And the marketing - You just hire a PR company forthat - money, moneymoney. Not yet earned, so have to be borrowed. Terry, this is the real world, this is where You risk ginking Yourself. Theleap from beingthe lonely craftsman by the beveller to being the boss of a company. I fearthat is whathappened to poor George. He ginked himself. He thought it was only aquestion of buyinga beveller and whammo, of f You go. Well, he found out the hard way thatthere was moreto it than a big mouth and a beveller. Gink. But still, go for it if You must. But don't kid Yourself into believing that allit takesis the ability to make a rod. That is the least of it. First time You considerhiring somehelp, do Yourself the favor of getting some professional help as how tomake the leap. Hand planers cannot grow exra hands, they are stuck with what theyhave and in the hole!Hand planing is easy, it is only hand planers that try to make it sounddifficult for reasons ofself promotion. I agree completely. Even I learned how plane a rod, although it is a fact Inever caredmuch for woodwork at school and did not use a plane for the next 25years, until thatdarned rodmaking forced me to. When Richard Nantel contacted me off list before making his first rodand hesuggested it might be too difficult for him, I told him to take what hereads on the list with agrain of salt. A week or so later he called me up and proudly annouced hehad glued up hisfirst rod and I asked him if it was difficult and he replied, " I cannot seewhat all the fussis about," and we both laughed. Richard is now making Salmon rods withthose soft littlecomputery hands! Thats the way to go. DO IT, MAKE A ROD. A piece of advice I have morethan oftenshared with wannabees on this list. All that talk of "gathering information"or "have spendthe last Year tooling up". As if making rods demanded the genius of anEinstein and theR&D capacities of General Electric. For chrissake, we're talking tomatosticks, notnuclear science. It is only if we want to turn pro that there is more to it I have got lazy and have lost much of the interest so getting on the listoccasionally gets megoing again. And I have enjoyed reading Your posts, as usual. Keep it coming regards, Carsten from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 19:50:22 2001 f031oLa21930 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Was mass appeal - the end, is now keeping it interesting Richard,if you are looking for more of a challenge try using yout feet!Terry Richard Nantel wrote: The problem with only making a taper once is that you willnever know if thedifferent process you tried actually made a difference. I agree completely that, if you are trying to see or measure the effects ofone variation in the rod making process, you need to keep all the otherparameters as constant as possible. If you want, for example, to see theeffect of dipping versus impregnation on the action of a rod, you shouldprobably build two identical rods from the same culm in the sameatmospheric conditions, etc. Only the finish should be different. Suchcontrol will lead to improvements in the various materials and techniques. But, once you've settled on tapers you like, have the finishing techniquechosen, and the production method tweaked for precision and efficiency,howdo you crank out ten identical rods to sell and keep it interesting andfulfilling? I have nothing but admiration for those who can do this. To me,they are like monks. Because these rods are to be sold, the builder can'tgive in to the temptation to make rod number four a spiral rod, rod numberfive a quadrate, rod number six with two different tips, etc. When it comes to building rods, I think I have attention deficit disorder. Richard from piscator@macatawa.org Tue Jan 2 20:12:46 2001 f032Cja22484 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper Buy one of the better florescent lighted magnifiers with a 3x or 5x lens.No shadows and you can see every detail in the thread. Brian from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Tue Jan 2 20:22:16 2001 f032MEa22862 VL-MS-MR002.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: Was mass appeal - the end, is now keeping it interesting if you are looking for more of a challenge try using yout feet! I already do! That's how I keep my hands so soft. Cheers,Richard from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Jan 2 21:08:41 2001 f0338ea23634 Subject: RE: *WARNING* More massapealSTOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP OK GUYS ENOUGH IS ENOUGHSTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 21:11:45 2001 f033Bia23817 Subject: Re: Power wrapping/poly spraying Bob,that made me laugh, honestly, that reply just struck me as so funnybecause Ifound wrapping a real chore.Terry Bob Nunley wrote: James,If he can wrap an entire rod in 20 minutes, then maybe we better buyhima blue suit with a big "S" on the chest... a red cape to go with it so hecan fly to all our places and show us how he does this!I've been wrapping cane for 12 years and graphite for a long time beforethat, and I don't think I've ever wrapped a rod in 20 minutes. Maybe I'mslow, but that seems very fast. Even if you could get one guide with 3 or5 wrap tippings wrapped on in 5 minutes (seems fast if your using fine silkand making sure there are NO gaps), then even a 6 foot rod with only 7guides would take 35 minutes... then you have the ferrule wraps... addanother 5 to 10, then the check wrap, another 5... then if you do any kindof signature wrap... well, talking at least an hour, and I still don't wrapa rod in an hour.Like I said, I may be slow, but I wouldn't even try to wrap a rod withthe 6/0 silk I use in 20 minutes... I think it would come out looking prettyshabby, if I did.Can't help you on the spraying. don't do it. Strictly a dipper! *S* Later,Bob -----Original Message-----From: James Piotrowski Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 4:58 PMSubject: Power wrapping/poly spraying Given all the talk about production lately, I just had to ask thisquestion.An acquaintance who finishes an awful lot of rods, graphite mostly, but afair number of bamboo refinishes, claims he wraps most rods, includingcane,in about 20 minutes per rod. He finishes in just a couple of hours. So Iwanted to ask all you guys about his methods, see whether we or at leastImight me missing something here. He claims to wrap a rod in 20 minutes on his power wrapping equipmentwhichhe first bought for doing graphite but says works just dandy on cane. Anycane makers out there use powered wrapping equipment? Any reason notto? As to finishing, he prefers to spray. He masks the ferrules, the coatsdryvery quickly so he does several in a day, then he cleans the guides, beforedoing a last coat or two on the wraps with a brush. Polishes it up, and Ihave to say, his finishes look great. Anyone out there spraying theirfinishes? Helmsman comes in a spray can I saw down at the Home Depotthisweekend, was wondering whether that might work, or whether some HVLPgearmight do the job. from Grhghlndr@aol.com Tue Jan 2 21:15:15 2001 f033FEa24064 Subject: Re: Power wrapping/poly spraying When I used to hang around Bernard Hills shop years ago I used to watch his wife June using a power wrapping device. Very fast and very nice job.bret from bob@downandacross.com Tue Jan 2 21:25:18 2001 f033PHa24403 Subject: Handmill cutters Can anyone give me a source for the carbide cutters used in the Morgan Handmill? I must admit that this is a bit of a moral dilemma, but I just can't figure on buying them at $12 a pair. I have looked in Travers and I must admit, the cutters all look the same to me. Has someone ordered on their own and had success? If I could get a bunch at $4, I would be happier. I really appreciate this.Best regards,Bob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellular716- 836-2229 faxbob@downandacross.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 21:27:26 2001 f033RPa24537 Subject: Re: basic book C8B60917036852BD71AAD789" --------------C8B60917036852BD71AAD789 Bob,just like WINDOWS eh? and only $40. I still have half a bottle of snakeoil if anyone is interested Can we expect a review in Powerfibers? deadright we canBob Maulucci wrote: Wayne Cattanach's revised Handcrafting Bamboo Fly Rods. It is as goodas it gets. $40 at Amazon.com. It's straight forward and has greattapers. I would have recommended the Howell book for tapers alone, butit seems like they are all posted somewhere or other. Then get Howell, Maurer/Elser, and Gould. Get Garrison when you feellike you haven't used your slide rule in a while. I realize that manypeople are loyal to Garrison and his high standards and attention todetail, but I don't feel that it is essential reading for someone whowants to build rods anymore. I read the library's copy of Garrisonalmost 8 years ago, and I was afraid to pick up a plane until I readWayne's book and saw his video. The book by George Barnes is probablythe most simplified of all that I have read (and great), but I doubtyou will find it. I hope I don't get too beat up on for these comments. Be nice guys.Best regards,Bob At 05:28 PM 1/2/2001 -0700, Burke Taft wrote: I have a favor to ask - I wonder if you could recommend a basic bookon theconstruction of bamboo fly rods? I would be interested in information about bamboo fly rods, how theyaremade, where I might begin to get the tools and materials toconstruct abamboo fly rod. I tied flies and fished for trout as a young adultand aminterested fishing again. I have more than a few flies that I tiedthathave never been used - along with some very tattered flies that Icaughtsome very nice fish on. Burke TaftLafayette, Colorado Bob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellular716- 836-2229 faxbob@downandacross.com --------------C8B60917036852BD71AAD789 Bob,just like WINDOWS eh? and only $40. I still have half a bottle of snake dead right we canBob Maulucci wrote: Handcrafting BambooFly Rods. It is as good as it gets. $40 at Amazon.com. It's straightforward and has great tapers. I would have recommended the Howell book Then get Howell, Maurer/Elser, and Gould. Get Garrison when you feellike you haven't used your slide rule in a while. I realize that many peopleare loyal to Garrison and his high standards and attention to detail, butI don't feel that it is essential reading for someone who wants to buildrods anymore. I read the library's copy of Garrison almost 8 years ago,and I was afraid to pick up a plane until I read Wayne's book and saw hisvideo. The book by George Barnes is probably the most simplified of allthat I have read (and great), but I doubt you will find it. I hope I don't get too beat up on for these comments. Be nice guys.Best regards,Bob At 05:28 PM 1/2/2001 -0700, Burke Taft wrote:I have a favor to ask - I wonder if you couldrecommend a basic book on theconstruction of bamboo fly rods? I would be interested in information about bamboo fly rods, how theyaremade, where I might begin to get the tools and materials to constructa young adult and am tied thathave never been used - along with some very tattered flies that Icaughtsome very nice fish on. Burke TaftLafayette, Colorado BobMaulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellular716- 836-2229 faxbob@downandacross.com --------------C8B60917036852BD71AAD789-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Tue Jan 2 21:44:07 2001 f033i6a25057 Subject: Re: Handmill cutters Bob,morgan buys the things for sure, they could not produce them. Check in youryellow pages for tool suppliers and take an insert along and they will fixyou up.Why does everyone rip off rodmakers? they must all look stupid.regards, Terry Bob Maulucci wrote: Can anyone give me a source for the carbide cutters used in the MorganHandmill? I must admit that this is a bit of a moral dilemma, but I justcan't figure on buying them at $12 a pair. I have looked in Travers and Imust admit, the cutters all look the same to me. Has someone ordered ontheir own and had success? If I could get a bunch at $4, I would behappier. I really appreciate this.Best regards,Bob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellular716- 836-2229 faxbob@downandacross.com from channer1@rmi.net Tue Jan 2 21:50:35 2001 f033oYa25310 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper Shawn;Now don't tell me that a do-it-yourself kind of guy like you can't lookat a few pictures and think up something as good or better than what youcan buy! What ever happened to good ole yankee(read also, Canadian)ingenuity?John Shawn Pineo wrote: All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. My questionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop and theplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard with somescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn from channer1@rmi.net Tue Jan 2 21:50:43 2001 f033oha25335 Subject: Hey Terry, Mission Accomplished! I have to hand it to you Terry, you really know how to start up someconversation around here. I haven't had so much reading material since iread Dune!John from channer1@rmi.net Tue Jan 2 21:58:40 2001 f033wda25827 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper George;Just go to the drug store and get some reading glasses, I use3.25xbifocals when wrapping and planing, I'm going to have to start wearingthem to my regular job soon, it's getting to where I can't see anythingworth looking at without them.John nobler wrote: I started wrapping in the early 1950's, using a plain vanilla Herter'swrapper. I still use it ! Now at 68, I'm looking for "A" silk, as my eyesare no longer capable of seeing "00" ! I have tho't of a magnifier, buthaven't seen one that seemed very good ! GMA from martinj@aa.net Tue Jan 2 22:33:58 2001 f034Xva26488 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:33:56 -0800 "rodmakers list serv" Subject: RE: Granger Victory taper This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C074FB.54E85720 That's funny, I copied the taper off of a Granger Victory and it was a 8.5ft'er for 6wt.. The Victory name must be series huh? What I copied from wasa 3 piece, but I converted it to 2 piece. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:45 PM Subject: Granger Victory taper Could someone do me a favor and post this or email this taper to me. Iknow it's in the Howell book. I for some unknown reason cannot find my copy.I hope the kids haven't gotten ahold of it!!!!The rod is a 7 footer. Thanksin advance, Randall G. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C074FB.54E85720 funny, I copied the taper off of a Granger Victory and it was a 8.5 = 6wt.. The Victory name must be series huh? What I copied from was a 3 = I converted it to 2 piece. Martin= GregorySent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:45 = taperCould someone do me a favor and post= email this taper to me. I know it's in the Howell book. I for some = reason cannot find my copy. I hope the kids haven't gotten ahold of = rod is a 7 footer. Thanks in advance, Randall G. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C074FB.54E85720-- from avyoung@iinet.net.au Tue Jan 2 22:36:10 2001 f034a9a26658 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:36:07 +0800 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 12:36:05 +0800 Subject: Re: was Mass apeal - now glutton "and Collecting" I wonder if it was a coin or a lure?As a kid I used to bash a 20c coin into something like a dome and drill itto take a line and treble hooks. They worked very well and were a lotcheaper than bought ones. I also learned exactly what it ment to throwmoney away :-) Tony At 06:56 PM 1/2/01 -0600, Jojo DeLancier wrote:No, I don't think so. He fed all the idolaters, the great unwashed, theinfidels, the fish. I can't find anywhere where it says He actually ate thefish himself. Yes, Peter was a fisherman. He also found a coin in a fishesmouth but that doesn't make him a money changer.Harry, what do you think?M-D /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Jan 2 22:36:58 2001 f034aua26794 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 00:36:49 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods and Collecting Subject: Re: was Mass apeal - now glutton Yeah Yeah yeah all that's fine but I'd rather hear about the part where heturnswater to wine! That's my personal fave!Shawn ;^) Jojo DeLancier wrote: No, I don't think so. He fed all the idolaters, the great unwashed, theinfidels, the fish. I can't find anywhere where it says He actually ate thefish himself. Yes, Peter was a fisherman. He also found a coin in a fishesmouth but that doesn't make him a money changer.Harry, what do you think?M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Cc: "and Collecting" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:37 PMSubject: was Mass apeal - now glutton Jo-jo I'll let You in on a secret, but PLEASE don't tell anyone I said so: Peter was a fisherman, and Jesus prob. ATE the little critters.I know, I know, it just might be hear-say, but ask Harry yourself,he is learned about these things. regards, Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: Jojo DeLancier Cc: and Collecting Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:02 AMSubject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Great! Another large, dead rodent sacrificed upon the altar ofsustenance.Good to know Arkansas isn't the only place with "connoisseur" gluttons. M-D ----- Original Message -----From: "Carsten Jorgensen" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:06 AMSubject: Sv: Sv: Mass apeal Shawn Only reason I mentioned Santa is that I always sleep when he bringsthe presents. Would not dream of denying the existence of the Easter Bunny -had one for dinner last year around that special time of the year.No C&R politics for bunnies - he he. regards,Carsten ----- Original Message -----From: Shawn Pineo Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:46 PMSubject: Re: Sv: Mass apeal Carsten,I am greatly offended! What is the big idea of bringingSANTA into this??What now you expect us to believe santa isn't real?? Just who putthatlathe under mytree then , huh?? ;^) Next thing you know you will be trying to tellmethe Easterbunny doesn't exist and won't be dropping off my rod wrapper whenheleaves my kidstheir eggs?? ;^)Shawn from goodaple@tcac.net Tue Jan 2 22:51:15 2001 f034pEa27219 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license1dc0b39e31881b14e43eebad2dae5270) Subject: RE:Granger Victory taper Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0750F.2090E5A0 The one I made was a 2 pc. 7ft Rod which I used for a 5 wt. I believe =it was the Victory taper but it may have been a Favorite? I wish I could =find my darn book. I had modified the taper slightly which made it bit =faster. As if it wasn't fast enough already. I do know that it's in =Howells book because I had made the modification notes beside the taper =listing. Can someone help me find my book?????? I can always get a new =book, but I"ll definitely miss The notes I had made throughout!!! =Randall G. Yep, I checked my other one that I had made. It is a =modified Granger Victory because I signed the rod as a modified version. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0750F.2090E5A0 The one I made was a 2 pc. 7ft Rod = Favorite? I wish I could find my darn book. I had modified the taper = which made it bit faster. As if it wasn't fast enough already. I do know = it's in Howells book because I had made the modification notes beside = listing. Can someone help me find my book?????? I can always get a new = version. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0750F.2090E5A0-- from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Tue Jan 2 22:52:15 2001 f034qEa27331 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Rod wrapper To everyone who responded on and off list, thank you for your valuableinput about wrappers! Don't worry, the world isn't ending and I haven't givenup on theFranken tools just because I got a real lathe now and I'm looking atALTERNATIVES for wrapping. I'm sure I could find some old junked washingmachines and kids toys around to rob and build a ghastly Franken binder if Ihad to. Which reminds me that if I ever get a chance I should tidy up thatpage and add some better pictures and new tools!You should have seen me trying to build rods in a military barracks for4 months! Now that's a franken work shop. I'm sure that some of theimprovisations and shortcuts I had to take there would send some here onthelist running in horror!I find that my tools are becoming fancier and more well tuned, althoughI am so happy with my forms I won't mess with them (not for awhileanyway;^)). I figure if they are good enough to make that tiny little 2 wt without aglue line then they should do me fine. Once again, Thanks,Shawn Shawn Pineo wrote: All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. My questionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop and theplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard with somescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn from caneman@clnk.com Tue Jan 2 23:11:32 2001 f035BVa28051 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: RE:Granger Victory taper This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0779_01C07511.4F89D220 Randall... FINALLY found my Howells book Here is the taper for the =Granger Victory (Wright McGill) 7' 2pc 4 wt. Station Butt Tip0 .335 .1805 .335 .16810 .335 .15615 .270 .14420 .260 .13025 .245 .12030 .239 .10535 .225 .09040 .203 .07245 .200 .070 Later,Bob -----Original Message-----From: Randall Gregory Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:51 PMSubject: RE:Granger Victory taper The one I made was a 2 pc. 7ft Rod which I used for a 5 wt. I =believe it was the Victory taper but it may have been a Favorite? I wish =I could find my darn book. I had modified the taper slightly which made =it bit faster. As if it wasn't fast enough already. I do know that it's =in Howells book because I had made the modification notes beside the =taper listing. Can someone help me find my book?????? I can always get a =new book, but I"ll definitely miss The notes I had made throughout!!! =Randall G. Yep, I checked my other one that I had made. It is a =modified Granger Victory because I signed the rod as a modified version. ------=_NextPart_000_0779_01C07511.4F89D220 Randall... FINALLY found my 2pc 4 wt. Later,Bob -----Original = rodmakers list serv <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:51 PMSubject:RE:Granger = taperThe one I made was a 2 pc. 7ft Rod = Favorite? I wish I could find my darn book. I had modified the taper = slightly which made it bit faster. As if it wasn't fast enough = know that it's in Howells book because I had made the modification = beside the taper listing. Can someone help me find my book?????? I = always get a new book, but I"ll definitely miss The notes I had = other one that I had made. It is a modified Granger Victory because = the rod as a modified version. ------=_NextPart_000_0779_01C07511.4F89D220-- from caneman@clnk.com Tue Jan 2 23:13:14 2001 f035DDa28202 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) "rodmakers list serv" Subject: RE:Granger Victory taper This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0786_01C07511.8CD2E860 Note, on that Granger Victory taper I just posted from Jack Howell's =book, there is a note to deduct .004" for varnish -----Original Message-----From: Randall Gregory Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:51 PMSubject: RE:Granger Victory taper The one I made was a 2 pc. 7ft Rod which I used for a 5 wt. I =believe it was the Victory taper but it may have been a Favorite? I wish =I could find my darn book. I had modified the taper slightly which made =it bit faster. As if it wasn't fast enough already. I do know that it's =in Howells book because I had made the modification notes beside the =taper listing. Can someone help me find my book?????? I can always get a =new book, but I"ll definitely miss The notes I had made throughout!!! =Randall G. Yep, I checked my other one that I had made. It is a =modified Granger Victory because I signed the rod as a modified version. ------=_NextPart_000_0786_01C07511.8CD2E860 Note, on that Granger Victorytaper = posted from Jack Howell's book, there is a note to deduct .004" for = varnish -----Original = rodmakers list serv <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Tuesday, January 02, 2001 10:51 PMSubject:RE:Granger = taperThe one I made was a 2 pc. 7ft Rod = Favorite? I wish I could find my darn book. I had modified the taper = slightly which made it bit faster. As if it wasn't fast enough = know that it's in Howells book because I had made the modification = beside the taper listing. Can someone help me find my book?????? I = always get a new book, but I"ll definitely miss The notes I had = other one that I had made. It is a modified Granger Victory because = the rod as a modified version. ------=_NextPart_000_0786_01C07511.8CD2E860-- from goodaple@tcac.net Tue Jan 2 23:43:13 2001 f035hCa28944 (InterMail vK.4.02.00.10 201-232-116-110 license1dc0b39e31881b14e43eebad2dae5270) Subject: Re:Granger taper Organization: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C07516.64E16FC0 Thanks Bob!!!!!!! By the way, for other list members, this is a great =little rod. I use it on the White river system in Arkansas on a regular =basis. I have decided to build myself another with improved cosmetics =since the other that I made was my first rod a few years back, and I =used cheapo components. Thanks again, Randall R. Gregory. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C07516.64E16FC0 Thanks Bob!!!!!!! By the way, for other = members, this is a great little rod. I use it on the White river system = Arkansas on a regular basis. I have decided to build myself another with = improved cosmetics since the other that I made was my first rod a few = Gregory. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C07516.64E16FC0-- from dutcher@email.msn.com Wed Jan 3 00:00:43 2001 f0360ga29313 Tue, 2 Jan 2001 22:00:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Power wrapping/poly spraying Bob,The daughter of a friend of mine wraps rods for Sage. She does this athome as a cottage business. She does use a power wrapper. In a full eighthour day she does twenty rods. Sage pays $3 - $8 per rod based on the retailprice of the rod. Regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Power wrapping/poly spraying James,If he can wrap an entire rod in 20 minutes, then maybe we better buyhima blue suit with a big "S" on the chest... a red cape to go with it so hecan fly to all our places and show us how he does this!I've been wrapping cane for 12 years and graphite for a long timebeforethat, and I don't think I've ever wrapped a rod in 20 minutes. Maybe I'mslow, but that seems very fast. Even if you could get one guide with 3or5 wrap tippings wrapped on in 5 minutes (seems fast if your using finesilkand making sure there are NO gaps), then even a 6 foot rod with only 7guides would take 35 minutes... then you have the ferrule wraps... addanother 5 to 10, then the check wrap, another 5... then if you do any kindof signature wrap... well, talking at least an hour, and I still don'twrapa rod in an hour.Like I said, I may be slow, but I wouldn't even try to wrap a rod withthe 6/0 silk I use in 20 minutes... I think it would come out lookingprettyshabby, if I did.Can't help you on the spraying. don't do it. Strictly a dipper! *S* Later,Bob -----Original Message-----From: James Piotrowski Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 4:58 PMSubject: Power wrapping/poly spraying Given all the talk about production lately, I just had to ask thisquestion.An acquaintance who finishes an awful lot of rods, graphite mostly, but afair number of bamboo refinishes, claims he wraps most rods, includingcane,in about 20 minutes per rod. He finishes in just a couple of hours. SoIwanted to ask all you guys about his methods, see whether we or at leastImight me missing something here. He claims to wrap a rod in 20 minutes on his power wrapping equipmentwhichhe first bought for doing graphite but says works just dandy on cane.Anycane makers out there use powered wrapping equipment? Any reason notto? As to finishing, he prefers to spray. He masks the ferrules, the coatsdryvery quickly so he does several in a day, then he cleans the guides,beforedoing a last coat or two on the wraps with a brush. Polishes it up, andIhave to say, his finishes look great. Anyone out there spraying theirfinishes? Helmsman comes in a spray can I saw down at the Home Depotthisweekend, was wondering whether that might work, or whether some HVLPgearmight do the job. from petermckean@netspace.net.au Wed Jan 3 03:45:05 2001 f039j3a01140 f039irx02298; Subject: Re: Hey Terry, Mission Accomplished! Organization: vet John Yeah, and the sandworms seem to sort of ring a bell, don't they? Peter --- Original Message ----- Subject: Hey Terry, Mission Accomplished! I have to hand it to you Terry, you really know how to start up someconversation around here. I haven't had so much reading material since iread Dune!John from jcbyrd@direct-pest.com Wed Jan 3 06:11:25 2001 f03CBOa02378 Subject: Re: Handmill cutters Bob: If you take a look in the back of your Handmill manual you will find asource for the cutters. Tom placed that information there in case folkswant to purchase directly from someone like MSC. If you have the MSC BigBook you can find the cutters in there. You will find however that the quality of cutters that Tom ships with thehandmill are around 10-12 bucks per set even with MSC. Joe ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Handmill cutters Can anyone give me a source for the carbide cutters used in the MorganHandmill? I must admit that this is a bit of a moral dilemma, but I justcan't figure on buying them at $12 a pair. I have looked in Travers and Imust admit, the cutters all look the same to me. Has someone ordered ontheir own and had success? If I could get a bunch at $4, I would behappier. I really appreciate this.Best regards,Bob Maulucci==================================================http://www.powerfibers.comhttp://www.downandacross.com218 Wallace AvenueBuffalo, NY 14216716-836-8297 home716-867-0523 cellular716- 836-2229 faxbob@downandacross.com from channer1@rmi.net Wed Jan 3 06:35:14 2001 f03CZEa02812 Subject: Re: Hey Terry, Mission Accomplished! Peter, I hadn't thought about that, it was just the biggest book thatcame to mindJohn petermckean wrote: John Yeah, and the sandworms seem to sort of ring a bell, don't they? Peter --- Original Message -----From: "channer" Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:53 PMSubject: Hey Terry, Mission Accomplished! I have to hand it to you Terry, you really know how to start up someconversation around here. I haven't had so much reading material since iread Dune!John from dickay@alltel.net Wed Jan 3 08:05:26 2001 f03E5AI09580 srv.alltel.net Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:05:08 -0600 Subject: Re: was Mass apeal - now glutton 'Sides, all the Catholics know that Jesus was a good Catholic and only atefish on Fridays. from nobler@satx.rr.com Wed Jan 3 08:11:22 2001 f03EBLI16234 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 08:03:23 -0600 Subject: Re: Handmill cutters Call Travers on their 800 line, and ask for tech support. Give the guy themeasurement, of one side of the cutter triangle, and ask how to duplicate iton an order. They come with different tapers to the cutting edge. GMA from jmpio@nhbm.com Wed Jan 3 09:17:50 2001 f03FHnI27723 "'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu'" Subject: RE: Power wrapping/poly spraying I was sure my friend was exaggerating with his 20 minute wrap jobs. Butyour friend's daughter is doing better than 2 rods per hour, so perhaps not.I still have to suspect that you can only hit that 20 minute mark with nylonon a nice round graphite with no tip wraps or other fancies, and that silkon a hex would take longer. Nonetheless, it definitely shows that rods canbe wrapped much faster than I'm doing, and I'm not even getting the mostbeautiful wrap jobs I've seen. -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: Power wrapping/poly spraying Bob,The daughter of a friend of mine wraps rods for Sage. She does this athome as a cottage business. She does use a power wrapper. In a full eighthour day she does twenty rods. Sage pays $3 - $8 per rod based on the retailprice of the rod. Regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Power wrapping/poly spraying James,If he can wrap an entire rod in 20 minutes, then maybe we better buyhima blue suit with a big "S" on the chest... a red cape to go with it so hecan fly to all our places and show us how he does this!I've been wrapping cane for 12 years and graphite for a long timebeforethat, and I don't think I've ever wrapped a rod in 20 minutes. Maybe I'mslow, but that seems very fast. Even if you could get one guide with 3or5 wrap tippings wrapped on in 5 minutes (seems fast if your using finesilkand making sure there are NO gaps), then even a 6 foot rod with only 7guides would take 35 minutes... then you have the ferrule wraps... addanother 5 to 10, then the check wrap, another 5... then if you do any kindof signature wrap... well, talking at least an hour, and I still don'twrapa rod in an hour.Like I said, I may be slow, but I wouldn't even try to wrap a rod withthe 6/0 silk I use in 20 minutes... I think it would come out lookingprettyshabby, if I did.Can't help you on the spraying. don't do it. Strictly a dipper! *S* Later,Bob -----Original Message-----From: James Piotrowski Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 4:58 PMSubject: Power wrapping/poly spraying Given all the talk about production lately, I just had to ask thisquestion.An acquaintance who finishes an awful lot of rods, graphite mostly, but afair number of bamboo refinishes, claims he wraps most rods, includingcane,in about 20 minutes per rod. He finishes in just a couple of hours. SoIwanted to ask all you guys about his methods, see whether we or at leastImight me missing something here. He claims to wrap a rod in 20 minutes on his power wrapping equipmentwhichhe first bought for doing graphite but says works just dandy on cane.Anycane makers out there use powered wrapping equipment? Any reason notto? As to finishing, he prefers to spray. He masks the ferrules, the coatsdryvery quickly so he does several in a day, then he cleans the guides,beforedoing a last coat or two on the wraps with a brush. Polishes it up, andIhave to say, his finishes look great. Anyone out there spraying theirfinishes? Helmsman comes in a spray can I saw down at the Home Depotthisweekend, was wondering whether that might work, or whether some HVLPgearmight do the job. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Jan 3 09:22:19 2001 f03FMII28041 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:22:08 -0800 Subject: Re: was Mass apeal - now glutton Oops, sorry. You're right Dick. I'm hoping all my friends realize just exactlyhow cheek in tongue, or tongue in cheek, that post was. BTW - do you knowthedifference between Baptists and Catholics? Baptists won't speak to eachotherin the liquor store. Now we probably ought to drop the religious nature of these posts before iteither gets too serious or we get called down for violating the non- politicalnon-religious nature of the lists. ormn - (obligatory rod making note) Put a coat of Ace Hardware Spar onsomewraps last night. That stuff sure is a dark amber. Reminds me of some ofBiondo's concoctions. Harry Dick & Kathy Fuhrman wrote: 'Sides, all the Catholics know that Jesus was a good Catholic and only atefish on Fridays. Harry, Ya got a couple of words turned around there. It should read. "Sides, all the Catholics know that Jesus was a good Catholic and ate onlyfish on Fridays. from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Jan 3 09:27:50 2001 f03FRnI28599 Subject: Re: Power wrapping/poly spraying Y'all,Speaking of power wraps, does anyone know where I might find someinstructions? I've got a power wrapper, and have so far only managed tomakebird's nests with it. There has to be a better way than I've tried. Of course,I only tried it for about 15 minutes. Harry btw - I know I'm as guilty as anyone, but we all really should try to delete anyunnecessary portions of quoted text from our replies... James Piotrowski wrote: I still have to suspect that you can only hit that 20 minute mark with nylonon a nice round graphite with no tip wraps or other fancies, and that silkon a hex would take longer. from mbiondo@wuacn.wustl.edu Wed Jan 3 09:33:10 2001 f03FX9I28962 Subject: Re: was Mass apeal - now glutton Yeah verily, Harry Boyd sayeth unto you... :-) ormn - (obligatory rod making note) Put a coat of Ace Hardware Spar onsomewraps last night. That stuff sure is a dark amber. Reminds me of some ofBiondo's concoctions. Hey, now that's a thought...Strong Scotch Ale as a finish for wraps...one Mike - fisher of kegs - BiondoSt. Louis, MO from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Jan 3 09:54:11 2001 f03FsAI29926 Subject: Re: Handmill cutters Carbide inserts normally have a code # on them nobler wrote: Call Travers on their 800 line, and ask for tech support. Give the guy themeasurement, of one side of the cutter triangle, and ask how to duplicateiton an order. They come with different tapers to the cutting edge. GMA from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Jan 3 10:07:23 2001 f03G7MI00682 rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: Re: Handmill cutters just out of interest, do these cutters have special edges ground on thembecausethe stock inserts fo metal removal are very blunt when viewed under amicroscope?Terry T. Ackland wrote: Carbide inserts normally have a code # on them nobler wrote: Call Travers on their 800 line, and ask for tech support. Give the guy themeasurement, of one side of the cutter triangle, and ask how toduplicate iton an order. They come with different tapers to the cutting edge. GMA from if6were9@bellsouth.net Wed Jan 3 10:43:27 2001 f03GhQI02384 Subject: Re: Rod wrapper as the rod must be lifted out of the V to turn it without a lot of effort.The roller style wrappers deal with the flats much better. As for fuzzythreads from tension devices, a piece of 1/4" allthread mounted vertical inyour wrapping board with a nylon washer under the spool, a nylon washer ontopof the spool, followed by a brass washer, a spring, and a wing nut will solvemost of that problem. To further reduce the fuzzies, get some SIC rod tipsand use them for thread guides. It takes a bit longer to change threadcolorsas they must be threaded rather than hooked like the open ring style, buttheywill not harm your wrapping thread. With all this said, the single mostcommon cause of fuzzies is excessive pressure on the tension device, be it abook, or whatever you are using. If you are using a compression device fortension, like those used by Flex Coat, clean them once in a while. There isalso an insert available for these devices that is made for using metallicthread with them, but also works great for fine diameter threads. If you areusing some type of spindle to mount you thread spool, make sure the threadiscoming off in the proper direction. If it tries to twist up on you when youslack off, turning the spool over will stop that. If you are looking at themost common wrapper style, two uprights on a short board, make sure toget anadditional outboard support, you will need it for those guides close to theends of rod sections, and it's a must for tips with this style of wrapper. brian sturrock wrote: Shawn if you REALLY want a cheapo rig.Buy a thread tensioner from asewingmachineAttach it to a 1/2in X4inx 10in piece of hard wood (or pine ) andmake two M (the u in the middle will support the rod) shaped supports forthe blank ,and you have a wrapper that will do all wraps except for fansyweaves.I've been using this since 1978 and have found it more thansatisfactory.No amount of fancy equip't will replace skill.Cheers Brian---- - Original Message -----From: "Shawn Pineo" Sent: January 2, 2001 2:21 PMSubject: Rod wrapper All,since it seems that we've beat this production rod thing to death,I figured perhaps I would throw out a question on rod wrappers. To dateI know without a doubt that my weakest skill (although it is steadilyimproving with each rod) in building is my wraps.I know allot of you wrap with a tea cup and book as I do, but I amcurrently looking at wrapping benches (non-powered) and was thinking ofbuying one of the track wrappers from Russ at Golden Witch. Myquestionis what do you guys think of this wrapper or if you have a differentpreference let me know why?I've seen other models such as the Sully from Angler's Workshop and theplain stands from flexcoat that could be made in the back yard withsomescrap wood and sewing machine tensioners. I would love to hear youropinions!I think I will definitely be investing in one of thoseLight/magnifier units too! Shawn from gjm80301@yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 11:04:19 2001 f03H4II03529 2001 09:04:17 PST Subject: RE: Granger Victory taper "Victory" indicates a component and finishing scheme rather than ataper or length. The finishes I recall are: FavoriteVictorySpecialAristocrat (more expensive as you go down the list, I believe) The taper is indicated by a model number. 9050 is a 9' 5 oz (whichhappens to be a 5/6. The 9053 is a 9' 5-3/4 oz, I believe. Do youhave the model #? Jerry --- Martin Jensen wrote:That's funny, I copied the taper off of a Granger Victory and itwas a 8.5ft'er for 6wt.. The Victory name must be series huh? What I copied from wasa 3 piece, but I converted it to 2 piece. Martin Jensen -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu GregorySent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:45 PM Subject: Granger Victory taper Could someone do me a favor and post this or email this taper tome. Iknow it's in the Howell book. I for some unknown reason cannot findmy copy.I hope the kids haven't gotten ahold of it!!!!The rod is a 7footer. Thanksin advance, Randall G. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!http://photos.yahoo.com/ from jerryy@webtv.net Wed Jan 3 11:24:07 2001 f03HO6I04469 (8.8.8-wtv-e/mt.gso.26Feb98) id JAA19708; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:24:02 - ETAsAhR5Dqzi1FljMtov8xWKME+OdEiV3QIUZl3mxnvVcVQ6WfX4bNJ6Oouf3K8= Subject: Re: Handmill cutters Jan2001 22:21:38 -0500 Bob - Be careful before you spend a lot of money on another brand ofcutter. I use Rouse cutter bits and sent Tom a couple of bits. Realisethat the bits index on the outside edge of the pocket. There was an.008 gap in between the cutters. Every brand of cutter is different.And the torque screw is usually different, some flat some tapered seat.That's how they sell lots of tool holders for their bits. The Rousecutters are much sharper so I use them for finish cutting the tapers andjust used some brass shims on the pocket side of the tool holder and thecorners meet at the apex of the strip. I just got the cosmolene off myXmas present to myself. A 9" x 20" Jet lathe. Just indexed the runoutand tried cutting threads and knurling. I buy Rouse cutters in a 10pack for $40.00 - list is $44.00. The new Jet uses 1/2" shank toolingso I bought a couple of Rouse tool holders and am using the same cuttersin the lathe. Tom thought his machinest that does the N/C work on thecutter heads was using Rouse but he used something else. Have the samecutters in Carbaloy brand but they are larger than the pockets in themill and they wont even fit. Tom is aware of this tooling problem andis doing everything he can to solve it. He is buying some tools from mysupplier, T & S Tool located here in Toledo. If you do find one thatfits just make sure that is a negative ground bit with a chipbreaker. Best regards, Jerry Young from dannyt@frisurf.no Wed Jan 3 11:27:42 2001 f03HRfI04728 (MET)User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Subject: A2 steel Dear listmembers, Anyone tried the new A2 blades from Hock. I want to replace my standardirons in my Record..... TIAregardsdanny from GROMBACHERA@phibred.com Wed Jan 3 11:36:39 2001 f03HacI05114 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:52:22 -0500 Subject: RE: (Not rodbuilding) Nylon Line C.R., Terry is right on about the braided line. It is still used in Minnesota andWI on muskie rods. I used it on my muskie rods that were for the big jerkbaits (i.e. 1 ft to 18 inch long Suicks). Works great, no stretch. Alberta Al -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: (Not rodbuilding) Nylon Line It was popular on multiplying casting reels and brands of braided nylon isstill available cadams46@juno.com wrote: Just got a box of junk given to me today. Most all the fishing relatedjunk family and friends find gets funneled down to me. But anyway I havea question not sure just what kind of answer I am after. I have a redwooden spool of "Newton's Grey Airline" its called. Cravenettewaterproofed Nylon Casting line, says its Braided of DU PONT nylon. 50yards of 25 lbs. Price was $2.50. Seems a little pricey. I'd beinterested if anyone e.g. the older folks of the list know anything aboutthis. Looks pretty interesting the top few winds are pretty browned andaged but under them you can see it looks brand new. ThanksSincerely,C.R. Adams from if6were9@bellsouth.net Wed Jan 3 11:38:21 2001 f03HcKI05257 Subject: Re: Mass apeal - the end - finally It seems this thread has spawned a new variation on the ever popular term"screwed". We can now referto any such situation as being "ginked", as in, I "ginked" that one up, or he got"ginked". I knewGeorge would turn out to be useful for something besides the production ofhot air. Terry, this is the real world, this is where You risk ginking Yourself. Theleap from beingthe lonely craftsman by the beveller to being the boss of a company. I fearthat is whathappened to poor George. He ginked himself. He thought it was only aquestion of buyinga beveller and whammo, of f You go. Well, he found out the hard way thatthere was moreto it than a big mouth and a beveller. Gink. from if6were9@bellsouth.net Wed Jan 3 11:50:12 2001 f03HoCI06165 Subject: Re: Power wrapping/poly spraying I've never sprayed finish, but I have used powered wrappers and still do onlarge saltwater sticks with long underwraps, but I prefer hand wrapping forsmaller wraps. I have found that I can do a small wrap by hand as quick, orquicker than I can with a power wrapper. Results will vary on this, I knowsomeone that uses a powered wrapper exclusively and her work is absolutelyflawless (and quick) time after time. James Piotrowski wrote: Given all the talk about production lately, I just had to ask this question.An acquaintance who finishes an awful lot of rods, graphite mostly, but afair number of bamboo refinishes, claims he wraps most rods, includingcane,in about 20 minutes per rod. He finishes in just a couple of hours. So Iwanted to ask all you guys about his methods, see whether we or at least Imight me missing something here. He claims to wrap a rod in 20 minutes on his power wrapping equipmentwhichhe first bought for doing graphite but says works just dandy on cane. Anycane makers out there use powered wrapping equipment? Any reason notto? As to finishing, he prefers to spray. He masks the ferrules, the coats dryvery quickly so he does several in a day, then he cleans the guides, beforedoing a last coat or two on the wraps with a brush. Polishes it up, and Ihave to say, his finishes look great. Anyone out there spraying theirfinishes? Helmsman comes in a spray can I saw down at the Home Depotthisweekend, was wondering whether that might work, or whether some HVLPgearmight do the job. from dutcher@email.msn.com Wed Jan 3 12:05:47 2001 f03I5kI07177 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 10:05:40 -0800 Subject: Power Wrapper & Varnish This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C0756C.631F7E60 Hi Guys, I am going to answer two posts here. Jerry, I have never seen thewrapper that Paul's daughter uses. But, he described it this way. Thewrapper is not her's, it is what Sage sends for her use. It looks like astripped down sewing machine motor with the foot control. The chuck is acupaffair with three set screws. The rod supports are the standard threeplastic wheels with O-rings around the circumference to protect the rod. Thewhole thing is mounted on a piece of unfinished plywood. It sounds like mostof the setups I have seen. I do not know what kind of thread tensioner isused nor do I know if the guide feet Sage sends have been prepared or not.It takes me about an hour to hand file the guide feet and measure and tapeon the guides. Oh, and another ten minutes to move the guides to the sameflat (there's always one or two). Harry, I live on a wooden boat and if there is one thing I can offer anexpert opinion on in this group it is vanish. The qualities I look for aregood UV protection to protect against deterioration. Elasticity to keep upwith the constant movement wood goes through. And a hard wear resistantsurface. Epifanse High Gloss is what I have ended up with. It has a verydark amber color and is a little heavier viscosity than most varnishes butthins quit well using Epifanse own thinner. The thinner contents is statedas mineral spirits only but, is clearer than the general hardware storebrands. Epifanse has a fantastic flow when brushing and can be appliedwithout brush marks. The great thing is Epifanes can be thinned up to 50%. This gives me goodpenetration on my initial coating of the wraps and does not increase thedrying time. With other products if I over thin they sometimes refuse to setup. I have not tried dipping a rod yet but, I would certainly think that thequalities of Epifanse would lend it's self well.Regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C0756C.631F7E60 name="Richard R. Dutcher.vcf" filename="Richard R. Dutcher.vcf" BEGIN:VCARDVERSION:2.1N:Dutcher;Richard;R.FN:Richard R. DutcherNICKNAME:DickORG:Trumpet Methodology, Inc.TEL;WORK;VOICE:206- 660-1705ADR;WORK:;;P. O. Box 349;Brinnon;Washington;98320- 0349;USALABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:P. O. Box349=3D0D=3D0ABrinnon, =Washington 98320- 0349=3D0D=3D0AUSAURL:URL:http://www.geckotech.com/dutcherEMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:dutcher@msn.comREV:20010103T180314ZEND:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C0756C.631F7E60-- from GROMBACHERA@phibred.com Wed Jan 3 12:12:47 2001 f03ICkI07638 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:57:42 -0500 Dick & Kathy Fuhrman Subject: RE: was Mass apeal - now glutton Dick/Harry, Did you know that beavers are considered to be a fish. They swim and havetails, and we in Canada can eat them on Friday's - cause the Pope (yearsago) said they were fish!! Gotta like living in Canada. Alberta Al-----Original Message----- Subject: Re: was Mass apeal - now glutton Oops, sorry. You're right Dick. I'm hoping all my friends realize justexactlyhow cheek in tongue, or tongue in cheek, that post was. BTW - do you knowthedifference between Baptists and Catholics? Baptists won't speak to eachotherin the liquor store. Now we probably ought to drop the religious nature of these posts before iteither gets too serious or we get called down for violating thenon- politicalnon-religious nature of the lists. ormn - (obligatory rod making note) Put a coat of Ace Hardware Spar onsomewraps last night. That stuff sure is a dark amber. Reminds me of some ofBiondo's concoctions. Harry Dick & Kathy Fuhrman wrote: 'Sides, all the Catholics know that Jesus was a good Catholic and onlyatefish on Fridays. Harry, Ya got a couple of words turned around there. It should read. "Sides, all the Catholics know that Jesus was a good Catholic and ate onlyfish on Fridays. from dpeaston@wzrd.com Wed Jan 3 12:39:19 2001 f03IdII09115 "rodmakers list serv" Subject: Re: Granger Victory taper --"Warning--long" When we use the generic term Granger (taper) we are covering a lot ofground, both in terms of time and rod designs. The Goodwin Grangercompamy made rods from the early 1920's until 1941 when they sold out toWright and McGill. In the early Goodwin era there were 4 named models, Tournament, Premier,DeLuxe & Special (corresponding to grade). In the middle era there were 4grades with different names: The Granger Rod, The Goodwin Rod, DenverSpecial & Colorado Special. In the late era (1938-1941) there were 8grades: Registered, Premier, DeLuxe, Favorite, Aristocrat, Special,Victory & Champion. The Wright & McGill Granger rods made from 1945-1950carried the same grade names except that the Champion was replaced by theStream and Lake (See Mike Sinclair's Book and/or Dick Spurr's "ValueGuide" at: Http://www.gorp.com/cl_angle/canecoun/ ). Although I do not have enough tapers from identified rods (there are 3posted on Frank's Online Archive), I expect that over the years thetapers changed. The tapers were held constant, however, between grades.The the high grades just got blanks with better node spacings andcosmetic appearence. They also got more guides and fancier wraps. Allrods made by Goodwin Granger were 3 piece except for a two piece 7'"Aristocrat" and a two piece "Deluxe." Wright McGill made 7' 2 piece rodsin the "Victory", "Aristocrat" and "DeLuxe" grades. The tapers on theLate era Goodwin 3pc and W&M 3pc seem to be pretty close regardless ofgrade, weight or length. They have a "semi-parabolic" look to the stresscurve. The tapers on the 2 pc rods are different. The 7' Two piece taperin Howell's book is a Wright McGill Victory. The shape of its stresscurve is similar to a Payne 100. I have no Idea what the tapers of theGoodwin 7' Granger rods were like (They were all "3 oz" rods).Interestingly the 7.5 ft 3pc rods were also "3 oz." It would be nice to have some of the shorter Granger tapers posted onFrank's Online Taper Archive giving some estimate of the era in whichthey were made. There are some tapers for 7' rods circulating that do notseem to match the Howell book taper. -Doug ArialCould someone dome afavor and post this or email this taper to me. I know it's in the Howellbook. I for some unknown reason cannot find my copy. I hope the kidshaven't gotten ahold of it!!!!The rod is a 7 footer. Thanks in advance,Randall G. from if6were9@bellsouth.net Wed Jan 3 12:56:00 2001 f03Iu0I09841 Subject: Re: Power Wrapper & Varnish regarding the cup and 3 screw chuck. Take out the three screws and throwthemin the junk drawer. Get an innertube and place the cup face down on it andcutout a circle about 3" in diameter larger than the cup. Get a big hose clampanduse it to mount the rubber to the face of the cup, pull it tight across theopenfront of the cup. Mount the cup and find the center of the rubber front. Cut asmall hole in the center and you have a universal chuck that will instantlycenter any rod put in it. Size the hole to be small enough to grip the smallestdiameter you will normally use. Trim the excess rubber from around thehoseclamp, if you are concerned about that sort of thing. "Richard R. Dutcher" wrote: Hi Guys, I am going to answer two posts here. Jerry, I have never seen thewrapper that Paul's daughter uses. But, he described it this way. Thewrapper is not her's, it is what Sage sends for her use. It looks like astripped down sewing machine motor with the foot control. The chuck is acupaffair with three set screws. The rod supports are the standard threeplastic wheels with O-rings around the circumference to protect the rod.Thewhole thing is mounted on a piece of unfinished plywood. It sounds like mostof the setups I have seen. I do not know what kind of thread tensioner isused nor do I know if the guide feet Sage sends have been prepared or not.It takes me about an hour to hand file the guide feet and measure and tapeon the guides. Oh, and another ten minutes to move the guides to the sameflat (there's always one or two). Harry, I live on a wooden boat and if there is one thing I can offer anexpert opinion on in this group it is vanish. The qualities I look for aregood UV protection to protect against deterioration. Elasticity to keep upwith the constant movement wood goes through. And a hard wearresistantsurface. Epifanse High Gloss is what I have ended up with. It has a verydark amber color and is a little heavier viscosity than most varnishes butthins quit well using Epifanse own thinner. The thinner contents is statedas mineral spirits only but, is clearer than the general hardware storebrands. Epifanse has a fantastic flow when brushing and can be appliedwithout brush marks. The great thing is Epifanes can be thinned up to 50%. This gives me goodpenetration on my initial coating of the wraps and does not increase thedrying time. With other products if I over thin they sometimes refuse tosetup. I have not tried dipping a rod yet but, I would certainly think that thequalities of Epifanse would lend it's self well.Regards,Dick Richard R. Dutcherdutcher@msn.com from teekay35@interlynx.net Wed Jan 3 14:15:48 2001 f03KFlI13161 Subject: Re: A2 steel My Lee Valley block plane has an A2 blade. In the LV catalog they say theA2 blade will stay sharp up to 5 times longer, based on tests they havedone. My experience is that tthe A2 blade takes a super edge and doesindeed stay sharp longer. I have 7 planes in use. ----------From: Danny Twang Subject: A2 steelDate: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:26 PM Dear listmembers, Anyone tried the new A2 blades from Hock. I want to replace my standardirons in my Record..... TIAregardsdanny from Gerald.Buckley@Thrifty.com Wed Jan 3 14:41:35 2001 f03KfYI14782 via smap (V1.0) Subject: Planing form channel When last we spoke I had just had my forms tapped. As life sometimes goes -- shortly after that I changed jobs, have a munchkinon the way, demolished and rebuilt the bathroom... ((talk about your Y2Kproblems!!!)) So, getting around to cutting the channel in my forms neverreally made it to the top of my list until today. from TPF, BFR and Howell'schapters on the topic all I can tell is - It comes down to vixen filingand/or the thread cutting tool. The List Archives seem to suggest stayingaway from milling and grinding people. Guys, I'm ready to get my forms donebut I want them to be as fine as I can make them and could use yourconsiderable wit and opinion on the topic. Lordy, I can see the threadnow... How Gerald got his groove back :) Thanks in advance, GB from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Wed Jan 3 15:47:44 2001 f03LlhI17529 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 13:47:38 -0800 Subject: Re: Planing form channel Gerald,I would suggest that you use both a lathe thread-cutting tool, and atriangular file glued to a block of wood or plexiglass. The lathe tool cutsfaster. But using the file is less traumatic when you are down to the lastfewfrog hairs and don't want to worry about chatter marks.I'd stay far, far away from a vixen file for cutting the 60 degree groove.Now the flattening process is another story.Good instructions are in several places, including Tom Penrose's web site,so I won't try to go into detail here. Hope this helps,Harry Gerald Buckley wrote: from TPF, BFR and Howell'schapters on the topic all I can tell is - It comes down to vixen filingand/or the thread cutting tool. from captvonbek@earthlink.net Wed Jan 3 16:13:00 2001 f03MCxI18956 OAA05253 Subject: Garrison Style Splice Block Hi all, Does anyone know of a source for or makes a good, steel Garrison stylesplice block that begins with a narrow 5/32" slot. I purchased one at theend of the summer and learned yesterday afternoon, when I used it for thefirst time, that the slot begins at 1/4". This, of course, renders ituseless for strips that are less than 1/4" thick. I know that many of you make some really great tools or perhaps knowsomeone who makes these things. I do not have the tools nor do I know a machine shop that will make me one,so that's out. :) Regards, Frank--- Frank Olivieri--- captvonbek@earthlink.net--- EarthLink: It's your Internet. from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Jan 3 17:25:37 2001 f03NPaI20706 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:25:26 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods Subject: Re: Planing form channel Gerald,I used the instructions on Thomas Penrose's site and my forms cameoutexcellent! I used the triangular file, or should I say files. My suggestion shouldyou go this route is to buy at least 3 or 4 triangular files, various sizes iseven better and make several blocks with perfectly square grooves in them.That wayyou always have a file that rests just above the forms as you go down. Alsobeforeusing each of the block/files check to make sure that your angles are bangon. Theyshould be good if your blocks groove is perfectly square and your file isperfectlyflat in the block's groove ( I actually clamped mine down while the epoxydried.Be very, very careful at the tip end of the butt and tip sides going evena little too deep will limit the rods you can make. I took some very fine(1000-2000) grit paper and actually molded it to the file and block for acouple ofpasses to smooth the groove even more.Had you not already cut and tapped your forms I also would havesuggested adding another foot on with stations every 2 1/2 inches for lateron ifyou wanted to build swelled butt rods. P.S. Take your time!!!!Best of luck,ShawnHarry Boyd wrote: Gerald,I would suggest that you use both a lathe thread-cutting tool, and atriangular file glued to a block of wood or plexiglass. The lathe tool cutsfaster. But using the file is less traumatic when you are down to the lastfewfrog hairs and don't want to worry about chatter marks.I'd stay far, far away from a vixen file for cutting the 60 degree groove.Now the flattening process is another story.Good instructions are in several places, including Tom Penrose's website,so I won't try to go into detail here. Hope this helps,Harry Gerald Buckley wrote: from TPF, BFR and Howell'schapters on the topic all I can tell is - It comes down to vixen filingand/or the thread cutting tool. from rcurry@ttlc.net Wed Jan 3 18:10:11 2001 f040AAI21624 Subject: Jan/Feb Contest All right, no more Mister Nice Guy. Last month's question was too easy.Best regards,Reedhttp://www.overmywaders.com/ from oakmere@carol.net Wed Jan 3 18:26:20 2001 f040QJI22044 rodmakers@mail.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Varane Hi Jim: Well, I have done numerous rods with the epoxy finish material using avariety of techniques. I have not been able to get any consistency to mysatisifaction. I have a very good friend who builds "plastic rods" as abusiness and the stuff works very well for him, but he has been workingwith it on a daily basis for well on 15 or 20 years. With building a rodhere and there I have not been very consistent with the epoxy. I have nottried the LS2000 stuff and probably will not. Well, I picked up some of this P&L R10 Varane for doing bamboo (justbeginning). I am currently finishing a "plastic" rod with it, so I don'thave any long term experience with it on plastic. I do know that Ray Gouldhas used this stuff for bamboo for a long time and he recommends it in hisbamboo rod building book. I guess that I am in the experimental stage atthis time with the first "plastic" rod finishing job. As far as I amconcern this stuff goes on beautifully and is clear when it dries - and itis very hard after a few days of fully drying. Seems to dry for recoatingin 4 to 5 hours. I have used it on some rebuilt bamboo rods and it seems tohold up quite well in those cases. So I am experimenting with it on"plastic". Sorry in advance for using the "plastic" word guys. Best, Frank WellAt 06:43 AM 1/3/01 -0700, you wrote:Frank, I'm fed up with the epoxy finishes that are commonly used for plastic. Eventhe LS2000 builds too much for me. Seems I'm doing more graphite thesedaysthan 'boo. Anyway, your message really caught my eye; I've been close togoing back to varnish. Have you any windings that have been out there forawhile with the varane and does it stay clear? I'm guessing you're fullysatisfied with the Varane. Jim----- Original Message -----From: "Frank W. Paul" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 3:27 PMSubject: RE: Varane Hi Don: I don't know the difference, but I have been using the P&L R10 Varane andIam very impressed with how it works on bamboo and on "plastic" rodwindings. Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutbeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work); 864-656-7471oakmere@carol.net (home); 864-882-0077 Frank Paul, GreyFoxTroutbeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work); 864-656-7471oakmere@carol.net (home); 864-882-0077 from oakmere@carol.net Wed Jan 3 18:31:10 2001 f040V9I22258 Subject: Re: Varane Hi Dave: Yes, my mistake, it is called Varmor Best, Frank Yes, it is calded At 09:54 PM 1/2/01 -0600, you wrote:P&L R10 is Varmor isn't it?-----Original Message-----From: Frank W. Paul Date: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 7:10 PMSubject: RE: Varane Hi Don: I don't know the difference, but I have been using the P&L R10 Varane andIam very impressed with how it works on bamboo and on "plastic" rodwindings. Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutbeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work); 864-656-7471oakmere@carol.net (home); 864-882-0077 Frank Paul, GreyFoxTroutbeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work); 864-656-7471oakmere@carol.net (home); 864-882-0077 from jojo@ipa.net Wed Jan 3 18:31:46 2001 f040VjI22354 Subject: Re: Planing form channel Gerald, I used triangle files mounted on a wooden block. I cut the files all thesame length, cut the groove in the blocks with a dado blade on a table saw,all to the same depth. I used three different grades of file: bastard,second cut, smooth. Then I used a triangle India stone, mounted on one ofthe same type blocks, used with oil, to bring it all to specs. Be aware thatall triangle files are not equilateral. Some will be more so than others.Use a thread gauge to get as close as possible, and go through all the filesin a box. The India stones do tend to be right on spec.If you want a simple, though not inexpensive, way to set the gaps in yourforms use plug gauges. You can tighten each station just snug, move to thenext station using a .005 less gauge, and so on until your through all thestations, then go back through them all again to insure accuracy. In thebeginning there is so much metal to remove that you needn't be tooconcernedwith accuracy, but as you go along you will want to pay attention. M-D ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Planing form channel So, getting around to cutting the channel in my forms neverreally made it to the top of my list until today. from TPF, BFR andHowell'schapters on the topic all I can tell is - It comes down to vixen filingand/or the thread cutting tool. Guys, I'm ready to get my forms donebut I want them to be as fine as I can make them and could use yourconsiderable wit and opinion on the topic. from nobler@satx.rr.com Wed Jan 3 18:39:14 2001 be forged)) f040dDI22731 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:33:42 -0600 Subject: Re: was Mass apeal - now glutton Speaking of Biondo, is his web site that has the dimension chart for makingSuper Z ferrules ? At any rate, can anyone give me the site address thatdoes have this chart ?Thanks,GMA from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Jan 3 18:48:11 2001 f040mBI23022 Subject: Re: Mass apeal - the end - finally I do not find it particularly funny at all, his name could not be mentioned onthis list which was reallysmall minded, but so has been most of the cracks regarding bevellers.George has a son that did most of the work while his father played on thecomputer, they have tons of goodcane and I am sure you have not heard the last of them. I certainly wouldhave liked to see them succeedand so should you mean bastards because if he had got it right it would madehis rods good introductionrods and perhaps you all would have benefited. One customer on FFmentioned that the bastard that hepurchased was roughly made but could cast very well and chose it over the the custom cane rods hepossessed and fished it hard because he did not put too much money into it. Icannot imagine a bettertribute than that?But you guys did not make ugly rods when you first started did you?TerryCustom Built Fishing Rods wrote: It seems this thread has spawned a new variation on the ever popular term"screwed". We can now referto any such situation as being "ginked", as in, I "ginked" that one up, or hegot "ginked". I knewGeorge would turn out to be useful for something besides the production ofhot air. Terry, this is the real world, this is where You risk ginking Yourself. Theleap from beingthe lonely craftsman by the beveller to being the boss of a company. Ifear that is whathappened to poor George. He ginked himself. He thought it was only aquestion of buyinga beveller and whammo, of f You go. Well, he found out the hard way thatthere was moreto it than a big mouth and a beveller. Gink. from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Jan 3 18:57:38 2001 f040vbI23386 "bob@downandacross.com" ,"rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu" Subject: Re: Handmill cutters They obviously must work because many of the guys recommend them. Theyare are not the "scary sharp" that is required for a plane bladeand you are cutting double. Is the force required to push the plane greaterthan a block plane?Terry across@www.downandacross.com wrote: I think they are stock cutters from a supplier with a special chip breaker. Idon't think they are made especially for the HM though.Bob Original Message:-----------------From: T. Ackland hexagon@odyssee.netDate: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:13:10 -0500Subject: Re: Handmill cutters just out of interest, do these cutters have special edges ground on thembecausethe stock inserts fo metal removal are very blunt when viewed under amicroscope?Terry -------------------------------------------------------------------This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/-------------------------------------------------- ----------------- from rodsmiths@imt.net Wed Jan 3 19:03:00 2001 f0412vI23638 Organization: Tom Morgan Rodsmiths, Ltd. Subject: carbide inserts Since there has been public discussion of the carbide inserts used inthe Morgan Hand Mill I would like to provide the following information. The original carbide inserts can be ordered from the following supplier: Airgas Tool and SupplyCorporate Distribution Center2225 Workman Mill RoadWhittier, CA 90601-14371-800-289-4787 Insert number is TT321Inscribed circle is 3/8"Tip radius is .015"Model C- 2Airgas part number 2035 5320 In their most recent catalog the price per insert is $6.18 or $12.36 perset of 2 plus shipping. On occasion, they can be purchased from theirsale catalog at a reduced price. There are other inserts that will fit the cutter heads. However, thesize & tolerance is very critical otherwise there is not a sufficientclearance between the tips and the insert points will chip when theinserts are installed. Or, if the clearance is too great, there will bea gap between the points that is too large and the top of the bamboostrips will not be cut properly. This can sometimes be corrected withequal shims behind the carbide inserts to move the inserts the properdistance apart. I have experimented with different carbide inserts from other suppliersand have found one that I am supplying now in lieu of the original oneslisted above. They seem to be sharper and provide somewhat longerlife. However, that is not to say that the original inserts don't workvery well. Their number is: TPGH-321 JT-2. They may be available offthe shelf but I haven't found a supplier without having them customground. The success of the Hand Mill depends on the carbide inserts so I havealways been open about the source of the cutters and have tried toprovide replacement inserts at a price consistent with their cost. If abetter insert surfaces I would be happy to distribute the information tomy customers. Sincerely,Tom Morgan from Lazybee45@aol.com Wed Jan 3 19:04:17 2001 f0414GI23784 Subject: Re: Handmill cutters In a message dated 01/03/2001 6:58:06 PM Central Standard Time, hexagon@odyssee.net writes: Odd, I have never heard of "Scary sharp" myslef. the worst thing I can think of in any bladed instrument is to be "dull". My personal pocket knives are generally extraordinarily sharp. Some sharp enough to shave with. I use Razor Planes that have blades that are truely "razor" sharp. My block planes do as well. I am only frightened by blades that are not sharp. THEY are the ones that will cut you!mark from caneman@clnk.com Wed Jan 3 19:08:56 2001 f0418uI24058 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: Handmill cutters Terry,Having had the chance to plane a bit on one of Tom's Hand Mills, I cantell you that the carbide cutters are MUCH easier to plane with than a handplane. The thing is actually a pleasure to use. I was shocked at both theease with which the cane planed and the finish that was on it after a passwas made. Later,Bob-----Original Message----- ; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Handmill cutters They obviously must work because many of the guys recommend them.They areare not the "scary sharp" that is required for a plane bladeand you are cutting double. Is the force required to push the plane greaterthan a block plane?Terry across@www.downandacross.com wrote: I think they are stock cutters from a supplier with a special chipbreaker. I don't think they are made especially for the HM though.Bob Original Message:-----------------From: T. Ackland hexagon@odyssee.netDate: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:13:10 -0500Subject: Re: Handmill cutters just out of interest, do these cutters have special edges ground on thembecausethe stock inserts fo metal removal are very blunt when viewed under amicroscope?Terry -------------------------------------------------------------------This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/-------------------------------------------------- ----------------- from nsflyrods@ns.sympatico.ca Wed Jan 3 19:40:03 2001 f041e2I24938 Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:39:53 -0400 Organization: New Scotland Fly Rods and Collecting Subject: Re: was Mass apeal - now glutton George,I think that chart is on Chris Bogart's site.Shawn nobler wrote: Speaking of Biondo, is his web site that has the dimension chart for makingSuper Z ferrules ? At any rate, can anyone give me the site address thatdoes have this chart ?Thanks,GMA from gjm80301@yahoo.com Wed Jan 3 19:40:24 2001 f041eNI25025 2001 17:40:19 PST Subject: Re: Mass apeal - the end - finally I agree. A lot of folks on this list have a strange propensity showgreat regard for experienced makers that help others constantly, buteither pay no attention to or make jokes about bummbling braggarts. Go figure. --- "T. Ackland" wrote:I do not find it particularly funny at all, his name could not bementioned on this list which was reallysmall minded, but so has been most of the cracks regardingbevellers.George has a son that did most of the work while his father playedon the computer, they have tons of goodcane and I am sure you have not heard the last of them. I certainlywould have liked to see them succeedand so should you mean bastards because if he had got it right itwould made his rods good introductionrods and perhaps you all would have benefited. One customer on FFmentioned that the bastard that hepurchased was roughly made but could cast very well and chose itover the the custom cane rods hepossessed and fished it hard because he did not put too much moneyinto it. I cannot imagine a bettertribute than that?But you guys did not make ugly rods when you first started did you?TerryCustom Built Fishing Rods wrote: It seems this thread has spawned a new variation on the everpopular term "screwed". We can now referto any such situation as being "ginked", as in, I "ginked" thatone up, or he got "ginked". I knewGeorge would turn out to be useful for something besides theproduction of hot air. Terry, this is the real world, this is where You risk ginkingYourself. The leap from beingthe lonely craftsman by the beveller to being the boss of acompany. I fear that is whathappened to poor George. He ginked himself. He thought it wasonly a question of buyinga beveller and whammo, of f You go. Well, he found out the hardway that there was moreto it than a big mouth and a beveller. Gink. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!http://photos.yahoo.com/ from sats@gte.net Wed Jan 3 20:31:15 2001 f042VEI26342 Subject: Terry, here's an idea. All this talk about China and your dislike of planing and attempts at millingstrips, I put the two together over New years and came up with this. Buy your strips, already planed, from China. You really don't care if they'replaned or milled as long as they meet your needs. That way you can work onassembly and not worry about milling. The strips could be milled/planed six at a time and sent to you taped, so youwould't even have to worry about selecting like pieces. They could also beglued if you trust your source, If not you could do the gluing yourself. You could also probably order the Ferrules and reel seats from the samesource. While there would be a slight charge for this, the savings to you in timewouldbe enormous. Quality control would be your only requirement. Just a thought that might get you out of the problems of trying to design abeveler. ----------------------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/vzn05zew from cbogart@shentel.net Wed Jan 3 20:41:17 2001 f042fFI26660 mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net ;Thu, 4 Jan 2001 02:41:09 +0000 (5.0.2195;1) Subject: Re: Terry, here's an idea. Terry Don't even have them go to final - a bit oversized and intoa final form and you are home free - 95% of the work is done for you.Minimal amount of your time and your retain quality control at the end of the process. I bet you could buy strips to your specs for pennies. Even with spoilage you will be way ahead. You control the final planeand then glue. Saves you many many hours of work. Then send them out to wrap - as we heard Sage pays $3 - $8per rod - fair price - give them $10 per rod and many more hours saved.Now just find a automotive body shop that will spray finish your rods and you are completely home free - Chris On Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:31:21 -0500, Terry Kirkpatrick wrote: All this talk about China and your dislike of planing and attempts at millingstrips, I put the two together over New years and came up with this. Buy your strips, already planed, from China. You really don't care if they'replaned or milled as long as they meet your needs. That way you can workonassembly and not worry about milling. The strips could be milled/planed six at a time and sent to you taped, soyouwould't even have to worry about selecting like pieces. They could also beglued if you trust your source, If not you could do the gluing yourself. You could also probably order the Ferrules and reel seats from the samesource. While there would be a slight charge for this, the savings to you in timewouldbe enormous. Quality control would be your only requirement. Just a thought that might get you out of the problems of trying to design abeveler. ----------------------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/vzn05zew from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Jan 3 20:55:22 2001 f042tLI27084 Subject: Re: Handmill cutters Bob,thanks, I was wrong on that one. I can remember when I first heard aboutusingindexable carbide inserts to cut cane I thought it was a little unlikely.Carbide inserts are not very sharp compared to say a plane blade and thecuttingand rake angles are nothing like a plane.Is cutting both sides of the strip at once accepted by the purists or is it anunfair advantage?Terry Bob Nunley wrote: Terry,Having had the chance to plane a bit on one of Tom's Hand Mills, I cantell you that the carbide cutters are MUCH easier to plane with than a handplane. The thing is actually a pleasure to use. I was shocked at both theease with which the cane planed and the finish that was on it after a passwas made. Later,Bob-----Original Message-----From: T. Ackland Cc: nobler@satx.rr.com ; bob@downandacross.com; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 6:57 PMSubject: Re: Handmill cutters They obviously must work because many of the guys recommend them.They areare not the "scary sharp" that is required for a plane bladeand you are cutting double. Is the force required to push the planegreaterthan a block plane?Terry across@www.downandacross.com wrote: I think they are stock cutters from a supplier with a special chipbreaker. I don't think they are made especially for the HM though.Bob Original Message:-----------------From: T. Ackland hexagon@odyssee.netDate: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:13:10 -0500Subject: Re: Handmill cutters just out of interest, do these cutters have special edges ground onthembecausethe stock inserts fo metal removal are very blunt when viewed under amicroscope?Terry -------------------------------------------------------------------This message has been posted from Mail2Webhttp://www.mail2web.com/Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/-------------------------------------------------- ----------------- from hexagon@odyssee.net Wed Jan 3 21:14:08 2001 f043E7I27615 Subject: Re: Terry, here's an idea. Terry,I have purchased a small lathe which I intend to convert to NC I have thecontrollers and software so I can knock out the ferrules, just got to connectup. Ihave developed and built my own drawing dies to produce reel seats ( I have alifetimes supply of nickel silver strip I got for free) Got everything coveredherethanks.Your stupid idea perhaps is not that stupid with some revision. Get the culmscutinto strips and staggered and cut to length in China, this will make a hugesavingin shipping.You just keep them ideas coming boy.Terry Terry Kirkpatrick wrote: All this talk about China and your dislike of planing and attempts at millingstrips, I put the two together over New years and came up with this. Buy your strips, already planed, from China. You really don't care if they'replaned or milled as long as they meet your needs. That way you can workonassembly and not worry about milling. The strips could be milled/planed six at a time and sent to you taped, soyouwould't even have to worry about selecting like pieces. They could also beglued if you trust your source, If not you could do the gluing yourself. You could also probably order the Ferrules and reel seats from the samesource. While there would be a slight charge for this, the savings to you in timewouldbe enormous. Quality control would be your only requirement. Just a thought that might get you out of the problems of trying to design abeveler.----------------------------Terry "Sunfish" KirkpatrickSafety Harbor, Florida(Old Tampa Bay)sats@gte.netMeet me at http://home1.gte.net/vzn05zew from jediman@eudoramail.com Wed Jan 3 21:27:57 2001 f043RuI28033 Wed Jan 3 19:27:42 2001 Subject: trouble makers Organization: QUALCOMM Eudora Web-Mail (http://www.eudoramail.com:80) Content-Language: en Terry When was the last time you made a split cane flyrod?? I am getting thenotion that the problem here could be rod envy? Instead of being so concerned about what everyone else is doing why dontyou go make a flyrod. JM Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail accountat http://www.eudoramail.com from oakmere@carol.net Wed Jan 3 21:29:24 2001 f043TNI28211 Subject: RE: Jesus and Fish Hi Harry and others: Great input Harry - go for it. Best, FrankFrank Paul, GreyFoxTroutbeck Fly and RodSeneca, SC Summer Residence: Troutbeck Cottage, Waterville, PA; 570-753- 8121fwpaul@ces.clemson.edu (work); 864-656-7471oakmere@carol.net (home); 864-882-0077 from lblan@provide.net Wed Jan 3 21:59:26 2001 f043xPI29117 Subject: RE: trouble makers This *is* a joke, right? Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 10:28 PM Subject: trouble makers Terry When was the last time you made a split cane flyrod?? I am getting the notion that the problem here could be rod envy? Instead of being so concerned about what everyone else is doing why dont you go make a flyrod. JM Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com from piscator@macatawa.org Wed Jan 3 22:21:08 2001 f044L8I00066 Subject: Original Heddon Snake Guides and hook keepers(and c.) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C075DC.34796600 Hi Y'all, A buddy of mine has (in his words) hundreds of hook keepers and =thousands of snake guides from the old Heddon factory for sale. Other = www.macatawabait.com I have no commercial interest in this, although if he sells enough I =might get him to pay next time we're at McDonalds. Brian ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C075DC.34796600 Hi Y'all, A buddy of mine has (in his= hundreds of hook keepers and thousands of snake guides from the old = order them from www.macatawabait.com I have no commercialinterest = McDonalds. Brian------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C075DC.34796600-- from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Jan 4 00:22:52 2001 f046MpI03906 with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:26:30 -0800 Subject: Clarification needed f046MqI03907 Question for Reed Curry or anyone who might know the answer. The Phillipson7' 5 wt. posted by Reed shows measurements that are .005" greater thenthat which is in the classic taper archive for this same rod. The rod isimpregnated yet .005" is deducted for varnish on the archived taper. Whichone is correct? Thanks. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from timklein@uswest.net Thu Jan 4 02:03:29 2001 f0483SI06681 (63.225.127.167) Subject: Re: Living in LA has so many downsides, weather can't make up... Give Colorado a spin while you're at it. I know we've got the reputation for being snow bound this time of year, buttoday was mid 50's and Friday is shaping up for low to mid 60's! I left work an hour early today to go dip a line in the water, but got abouthalf way there when I realized I hadn't renewed my license... Arggghhh! (took care of that though with my extra hour...can't wait 'till Friday) ---Tim ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Living in LA has so many downsides, weather can't make up... Life in LA has so many downsides that no weather conditions could possiblymakeit worth while. Sorry. If you want a pretty darn fair compromise, trylivingin North Carolina (I moved here from Canada 9+ years ago - trust me, IKNOW UGLYweather, even if great fishing) - decent year-round weather and VirginiaandSmoky Mountain trout within an hour or so. Life is good.dws. from horsesho@ptd.net Thu Jan 4 05:02:15 2001 f04B2EI09924 Organization: ProLog Subject: Re: Mass apeal W. Bruce Combest wrote: Where are these good places to buy these flies?----- Original Message ----- From: marty Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:26 AMI have had a few inquiries about flies on line. One is Hill's Discount Flies at(509) 972-0412 (Oregon I believe). I have another but can't as yet find theprice list. I believe that one has an 800 number. Both have price lists. Nofinancial interest, yata- yata- yata- bla -bla- bla. Marty PS . URL's can befound at Virtualflyshop.com under flies auction. Yea, I stopped tying flies when I could buy them off the net for $7.95per dozen and they where as good and better than mine. Marty Tony; anyone with a problem understanding this need only look atwhathappened to our flies. There was a time not all that long ago thatimportedflies were poorly made, using shoddy materials. Sam Surre used to tie for (name brand omitted) shops. He finallygaveit upafter finding one to many of his original patterns had made the tripacrossthe big water, with quite respectable imitations coming back at halftheprice he was getting. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 7:39 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn't alreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just toillistrate theease this could be done in but you are correct, they'd actually usebrokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. What you wrote re. the interest shown in your rod also happened tomebutin this case it was ferrules. I used to work for a Korean ownedcomputercompany and did a little work for them from home after I officialyleftthem. The owner came around one day to discuss things and foundme atthelathe. I showed him what I was doing and what they were for and hecouldn'tbelieve his luck at finding something that only needed people toilingat alathe for hrs at a time. He asked how long it takes, I told him twicethetime it actually takes, he halved it right off saying his factorymakingmother boards in China "have people who are very fast, very young,littlefingers".He grosly underestimated the accuracy needed at first thenshruggedhisshoulders and said something like that's not a problem, they learnortheyout. The thing is, I know they'll learn. In the end I convinced him Icouldn't possibly use several thousand of each size because thereareprobonly 100 bamboo rods made annualy all over the world and he lostinterestright away. I know, I fibed but it was for a good cause.Skilled labor and technical expertise is not a problem, when you'rehungryand you want a TV you learn fast.I know nothing I write here will make a dif but if this ever happenedyou'll see the first run will be almost good enough, the next runwill bebetter and after that even we would have difficulty in honestlyknockingthem as a good useable rod and you wont believe how quickly it canhappen. Tony from mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Thu Jan 4 05:23:22 2001 f04BNLI10613 Subject: Re: Mass apeal f04BNMI10614 Everyone seems to be complaining about the possibility of Chinese bamboorods flooding our market. Isn't it the same thing when flies are tied inKenyan sweat shops?? Don't we price American tiers out of the market? Isupply my own shop with flies I tie myself- so I can make money on them, buthow can a tyer compete with $3.50/dozen??? I get inquiries every week from companies in Kenya wanting to sell me flies. The biggest rip-off are thecompanies like LL Bean who get flies at these low prices and then turnaround and charge sky high prices. Here, in Maine, there used to be a thriving shoe industry- it is now in China. There is one company that I know of that has found a niche making highquality hand-sewn shoes, and they seem to be doing well. There is a point where we all have to make a stand and support local industrywhen we can. That's my $.02 worth. John Kenealymountain Valley flies ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: Mass apeal W. Bruce Combest wrote: Where are these good places to buy these flies?----- Original Message ----- From: marty Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:26 AMI have had a few inquiries about flies on line. One is Hill's Discount Flies at(509) 972-0412 (Oregon I believe). I have another but can't as yet find theprice list. I believe that one has an 800 number. Both have price lists. Nofinancial interest, yata- yata- yata- bla -bla- bla. Marty PS . URL's can befound at Virtualflyshop.com under flies auction. Yea, I stopped tying flies when I could buy them off the net for $7.95per dozen and they where as good and better than mine. Marty Tony; anyone with a problem understanding this need only look atwhathappened to our flies. There was a time not all that long ago thatimportedflies were poorly made, using shoddy materials. Sam Surre used to tie for (name brand omitted) shops. He finallygaveit upafter finding one to many of his original patterns had made the tripacrossthe big water, with quite respectable imitations coming back at halftheprice he was getting. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu YoungSent: Monday, January 01, 2001 7:39 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn't alreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just toillistrate theease this could be done in but you are correct, they'd actually usebrokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. What you wrote re. the interest shown in your rod also happenedto mebutin this case it was ferrules. I used to work for a Korean ownedcomputercompany and did a little work for them from home after I officialyleftthem. The owner came around one day to discuss things andfound me atthelathe. I showed him what I was doing and what they were for andhecouldn'tbelieve his luck at finding something that only needed peopletoilingat alathe for hrs at a time. He asked how long it takes, I told himtwicethetime it actually takes, he halved it right off saying his factorymakingmother boards in China "have people who are very fast, veryyoung,littlefingers".He grosly underestimated the accuracy needed at first thenshruggedhisshoulders and said something like that's not a problem, they learnortheyout. The thing is, I know they'll learn. In the end I convinced him Icouldn't possibly use several thousand of each size because thereareprobonly 100 bamboo rods made annualy all over the world and he lostinterestright away. I know, I fibed but it was for a good cause.Skilled labor and technical expertise is not a problem, when you'rehungryand you want a TV you learn fast.I know nothing I write here will make a dif but if this everhappenedyou'll see the first run will be almost good enough, the next runwill bebetter and after that even we would have difficulty in honestlyknockingthem as a good useable rod and you wont believe how quickly itcanhappen. Tony from bamboo@pa.net Thu Jan 4 07:11:03 2001 f04DB2I13522 Subject: Re: power fibers Bevellers must save an awful lot of time or else some folks probably wouldbe busy planing cane instead of trading electronic insults.----- Original Message - ---- Subject: Re: power fibers how come a bevelled Payne is worth slightly more that one of yours Eastkoyfly@aol.com wrote: JohnI think you are very right, that's what I meant when I saidthere is no market for cheap mass produced bamboo rods. People likethelonecraftsman thing and to them it means hand planing. Joseph Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 4 08:01:43 2001 f04E1gI14560 Subject: Re: Mass apeal John,what you see on this list is vindictive little punks John Kenealy wrote: Everyone seems to be complaining about the possibility of Chinese bamboorods flooding our market. Isn't it the same thing when flies are tied inKenyan sweat shops?? Don't we price American tiers out of the market? Isupply my own shop with flies I tie myself- so I can make money on them, buthow can a tyer compete with $3.50/dozen??? I get inquiries every week from companies in Kenya wanting to sell me flies. The biggest rip-off are thecompanies like LL Bean who get flies at these low prices and then turnaround and charge sky high prices. Here, in Maine, there used to be a thriving shoe industry- it is now in China. There is one company that I know of that has found a niche making highquality hand-sewn shoes, and they seem to be doing well.There is a point where we all have to make a stand and support localindustry when we can. That's my $.02 worth. John Kenealymountain Valley flies ----- Original Message -----From: marty Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 6:01 AMSubject: Re: Mass apeal W. Bruce Combest wrote: Where are these good places to buy these flies?----- Original Message ----- From: marty Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:26 AMI have had a few inquiries about flies on line. One is Hill's Discount Fliesat (509) 972-0412 (Oregon I believe). I have another but can't as yet findthe price list. I believe that one has an 800 number. Both have price lists. Nofinancial interest, yata- yata- yata- bla -bla- bla. Marty PS . URL's can befound at Virtualflyshop.com under flies auction. Yea, I stopped tying flies when I could buy them off the net for$7.95per dozen and they where as good and better than mine. Marty Tony; anyone with a problem understanding this need only look atwhathappened to our flies. There was a time not all that long ago thatimportedflies were poorly made, using shoddy materials. Sam Surre used to tie for (name brand omitted) shops. He finallygaveit upafter finding one to many of his original patterns had made thetripacrossthe big water, with quite respectable imitations coming back athalftheprice he was getting. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu YoungSent: Monday, January 01, 2001 7:39 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn'talreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just toillistrate theease this could be done in but you are correct, they'd actuallyusebrokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. What you wrote re. the interest shown in your rod alsohappened to mebutin this case it was ferrules. I used to work for a Korean ownedcomputercompany and did a little work for them from home after Iofficialyleftthem. The owner came around one day to discuss things andfound me atthelathe. I showed him what I was doing and what they were for andhecouldn'tbelieve his luck at finding something that only needed peopletoilingat alathe for hrs at a time. He asked how long it takes, I told himtwicethetime it actually takes, he halved it right off saying his factorymakingmother boards in China "have people who are very fast, veryyoung,littlefingers".He grosly underestimated the accuracy needed at first thenshruggedhisshoulders and said something like that's not a problem, theylearn ortheyout. The thing is, I know they'll learn. In the end I convinced him Icouldn't possibly use several thousand of each size becausethere areprobonly 100 bamboo rods made annualy all over the world and helostinterestright away. I know, I fibed but it was for a good cause.Skilled labor and technical expertise is not a problem, whenyou'rehungryand you want a TV you learn fast.I know nothing I write here will make a dif but if this everhappenedyou'll see the first run will be almost good enough, the next runwill bebetter and after that even we would have difficulty in honestlyknockingthem as a good useable rod and you wont believe how quickly itcanhappen. Tony from punky@integratedmillsystems.com Thu Jan 4 08:05:41 2001 f04E5eI14779 Subject: Flaming tool No, not something to fight off Terry with ;-) My wife received a butane powered kitchen torch for Xmas from one of thosefancy kitchen catalogs. Ostensibly it's for caramelizing the crust on topof your crÑme br§lÄe. But let's be honest: how many times a week can youeat crÑme br§lÄe? Four, maybe five? So it's out to the garage to test it on some cane. It produces a compact,crisp blue flame. The instructions say the flame temperature is 2300+ F,which sounds pretty hot (too hot?) to me. Wondering how this temperaturecompares to the LP or MAPP gas torches? Anyway, it seems to do a nice job on cane. Not ever having flamed canebefore, I can't really say. But I torched it and sanded off some of theenamel, and the result was cosmetically appealing at least. I'm thinkingnow as I write this message that I should try splitting off a small piece totest it for brittleness. The torch is lightweight and fits comfortably inthe hand. Okay, now for the really great part. I leaf through my new American Science& Surplus catalog (www.sciplus.com) last night and, lo and behold, there'sthe same torch. Of course, not for the $30 it normally retails for, but foronly $12.50!!! At that price I might have to buy 6 or 7 to mount in acircle and make my own Franken "ring of fire" (with apologies to Shawn P.) Seriously, if you are in the market for a torch, you might want to check itout. I could see other potential uses for this thing. It's a neat littleitem. Keith from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Jan 4 08:07:59 2001 f04E7wI15009 Subject: Re: Clarification needed Chris, That is my mistake. I'm not sure why I subtracted varnish on animpregnated rod...probably just not paying attention. I'll correct it. Chris, if you or anyone see mistakes like this just let me know.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Christopher McDowell wrote: Question for Reed Curry or anyone who might know the answer. ThePhillipson 7' 5 wt. posted by Reed shows measurements that are .005"greater then that which is in the classic taper archive for this same rod. Therod is impregnated yet .005" is deducted for varnish on the archived taper. Which one is correct? Thanks. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 4 08:17:45 2001 f04EHiI15810 Subject: Re: power fibers Bill,next week. I have been signed off work for 6 weeks after an operation, thatiswhy I have had some time to waste on the list.Electronic insults are what lists are about, do you honestly expect expertsafter working all day at their trade to sit at a keyboard and spoon feed thelazy. Bill Taylor wrote: Bevellers must save an awful lot of time or else some folks probably wouldbe busy planing cane instead of trading electronic insults.----- Original Message - ----From: T. Ackland Cc: ; Sent: Monday, January 01, 2001 2:24 AMSubject: Re: power fibers how come a bevelled Payne is worth slightly more that one of yours Eastkoyfly@aol.com wrote: JohnI think you are very right, that's what I meant when I saidthere is no market for cheap mass produced bamboo rods. People likethelonecraftsman thing and to them it means hand planing. Joseph Perrigowww.geneseevalleyrods.com from dnorl@qwest.net Thu Jan 4 08:29:18 2001 f04ETGI16368 (63.228.44.151) " " Subject: Re: Handmill cutters Jerry,Thanks for the info. I have been confused also. Shimming sounds a littlescary to me however.Dave-----Original Message----- rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Handmill cutters Bob - Be careful before you spend a lot of money on another brand ofcutter. I use Rouse cutter bits and sent Tom a couple of bits. Realisethat the bits index on the outside edge of the pocket. There was an.008 gap in between the cutters. Every brand of cutter is different.And the torque screw is usually different, some flat some tapered seat.That's how they sell lots of tool holders for their bits. The Rousecutters are much sharper so I use them for finish cutting the tapers andjust used some brass shims on the pocket side of the tool holder and thecorners meet at the apex of the strip. I just got the cosmolene off myXmas present to myself. A 9" x 20" Jet lathe. Just indexed the runoutand tried cutting threads and knurling. I buy Rouse cutters in a 10pack for $40.00 - list is $44.00. The new Jet uses 1/2" shank toolingso I bought a couple of Rouse tool holders and am using the same cuttersin the lathe. Tom thought his machinest that does the N/C work on thecutter heads was using Rouse but he used something else. Have the samecutters in Carbaloy brand but they are larger than the pockets in themill and they wont even fit. Tom is aware of this tooling problem andis doing everything he can to solve it. He is buying some tools from mysupplier, T & S Tool located here in Toledo. If you do find one thatfits just make sure that is a negative ground bit with a chipbreaker. Best regards, Jerry Young from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Thu Jan 4 08:29:57 2001 f04ETrI16488 Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:29:47 -0500 mtnvalleyflies@mtnvalleyflies.com Subject: RE: Mass apeal Come on Terry, you're a clever man with a lot to say and you can do betterthan name calling. I'm rooting for you to get into production the way Ialso rooted for the ginkmeister. Seems like you have a better chance ofsucceeding. So don't waste my bandwidth and goodwill with this juvenilegarbage. - the git from Vermont -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 9:08 AM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Mass apeal John,what you see on this list is vindictive little punks John Kenealy wrote: Everyone seems to be complaining about the possibility of Chinesebamboorods flooding our market. Isn't it the same thing when flies are tied inKenyan sweat shops?? Don't we price American tiers out of the market? Isupply my own shop with flies I tie myself- so I can make money on them,but how can a tyer compete with $3.50/dozen??? I get inquiries everyweek from companies in Kenya wanting to sell me flies. The biggest rip-off arethe companies like LL Bean who get flies at these low prices and then turnaround and charge sky high prices. Here, in Maine, there used to be a thriving shoe industry- it is now inChina. There is one company that I know of that has found a niche makinghigh quality hand-sewn shoes, and they seem to be doing well.There is a point where we all have to make a stand and support localindustry when we can. That's my $.02 worth. John Kenealymountain Valley flies ----- Original Message -----From: marty Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 6:01 AMSubject: Re: Mass apeal W. Bruce Combest wrote: Where are these good places to buy these flies?----- Original Message ----- From: marty Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:26 AMI have had a few inquiries about flies on line. One is Hill'sDiscount Flies at (509) 972-0412 (Oregon I believe). I have another butcan't as yet find the price list. I believe that one has an 800 number.Both have price lists. No financial interest, yata- yata- yata- bla -bla- bla. Marty PS . URL's can be found at Virtualflyshop.com under fliesauction. Yea, I stopped tying flies when I could buy them off the net for$7.95per dozen and they where as good and better than mine. Marty Tony; anyone with a problem understanding this need only lookat whathappened to our flies. There was a time not all that long agothatimportedflies were poorly made, using shoddy materials. Sam Surre used to tie for (name brand omitted) shops. Hefinally gaveit upafter finding one to many of his original patterns had madethe tripacrossthe big water, with quite respectable imitations coming backat halftheprice he was getting. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu YoungSent: Monday, January 01, 2001 7:39 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn'talreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just toillistrate theease this could be done in but you are correct, they'dactually usebrokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. What you wrote re. the interest shown in your rod alsohappened to mebutin this case it was ferrules. I used to work for a Koreanownedcomputercompany and did a little work for them from home after Iofficialyleftthem. The owner came around one day to discuss things andfound me atthelathe. I showed him what I was doing and what they were forand hecouldn'tbelieve his luck at finding something that only needed peopletoilingat alathe for hrs at a time. He asked how long it takes, I toldhim twicethetime it actually takes, he halved it right off saying hisfactorymakingmother boards in China "have people who are very fast, veryyoung,littlefingers".He grosly underestimated the accuracy needed at first thenshruggedhisshoulders and said something like that's not a problem, theylearn ortheyout. The thing is, I know they'll learn. In the end Iconvinced him Icouldn't possibly use several thousand of each size becausethere areprobonly 100 bamboo rods made annualy all over the world and helostinterestright away. I know, I fibed but it was for a good cause.Skilled labor and technical expertise is not a problem, whenyou'rehungryand you want a TV you learn fast.I know nothing I write here will make a dif but if this everhappenedyou'll see the first run will be almost good enough, the nextrunwill bebetter and after that even we would have difficulty inhonestlyknockingthem as a good useable rod and you wont believe how quicklyit canhappen. Tony from stetzer@csd.uwm.edu Thu Jan 4 08:42:37 2001 f04EgaI17266 IAA01876 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:42:36 - Subject: Straightening blank near butt I glued up a rod a while ago, and it came out with a slight kinkway down on the butt, about where the rod will leave the handle.I can do an OK job of straightening farther up the rod, using Max Satoh's clothes iron method, but I've tried the iron and alsoa heat gun on this spot without much results. I don't think I'mgetting enough heat into the rod. Its a blond rod so I'm trying not to scorch it. The rod is glued with resorcinol so its pretty tough. Once the handle is on the kink probably won't be noticable. ButI'd like to get it out anyway. Any advise?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from dhaftel@att.com Thu Jan 4 08:49:47 2001 f04EnkI17671 f04Ene512396; (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) (5.5.2652.35) Subject: RE: Straightening blank near butt Frank, I've had pretty good luck straightening over my electric stove. I canattenuate the heat by holding the rod at various distances, never getting ittoo hot to hold. This method of course, assumes you have ACCESS to anelectric stove. I wouldn't try it over a gas range. Good luck, Dennis -----Original Message----- Subject: Straightening blank near butt I glued up a rod a while ago, and it came out with a slight kinkway down on the butt, about where the rod will leave the handle.I can do an OK job of straightening farther up the rod, using Max Satoh's clothes iron method, but I've tried the iron and alsoa heat gun on this spot without much results. I don't think I'mgetting enough heat into the rod. Its a blond rod so I'm trying not to scorch it. The rod is glued with resorcinol so its pretty tough. Once the handle is on the kink probably won't be noticable. ButI'd like to get it out anyway. Any advise?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from earsdws@duke.edu Thu Jan 4 08:53:25 2001 f04ErPI17995 JAA08759; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Duke University Medical Center Subject: Re: Straightening blank near butt Try steam, much better conductor of the heat and won't scorch.dws. Frank Stetzer wrote: I glued up a rod a while ago, and it came out with a slight kinkway down on the butt, about where the rod will leave the handle.I can do an OK job of straightening farther up the rod, usingMax Satoh's clothes iron method, but I've tried the iron and alsoa heat gun on this spot without much results. I don't think I'mgetting enough heat into the rod. Its a blond rod so I'm tryingnot to scorch it. The rod is glued with resorcinol so its pretty tough. Once the handle is on the kink probably won't be noticable. ButI'd like to get it out anyway. Any advise?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Jan 4 08:56:55 2001 f04EusI18341 Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:56:51 +0800 Thu, 4 Jan 2001 22:56:50 +0800 Subject: Re: Straightening blank near butt Try using a pop up toaster set to the lowest heat and take your timeheating it over it. Tony At 08:42 AM 1/4/01 -0600, Frank Stetzer wrote:I glued up a rod a while ago, and it came out with a slight kinkway down on the butt, about where the rod will leave the handle.I can do an OK job of straightening farther up the rod, using Max Satoh's clothes iron method, but I've tried the iron and alsoa heat gun on this spot without much results. I don't think I'mgetting enough heat into the rod. Its a blond rod so I'm trying not to scorch it. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Jan 4 09:02:17 2001 f04F2GI18968 Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:02:13 +0800 Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:02:10 +0800 Subject: Re: Mass apeal That's a rather narcissistic comment isn't it? Tony At 09:07 AM 1/4/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote:John,what you see on this list is vindictive little punks /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 4 09:24:41 2001 f04FOeI20064 Subject: The Bastards' Back No need to grieve guys, check out his updated site.I think I may download a greeting card and send it from all the guys onrodmakers! from if6were9@bellsouth.net Thu Jan 4 09:41:19 2001 f04FfJI21070 Subject: Re: Mass apeal - the end - finally I apologize if I offended anyone with my remarks about getting "ginked", I wassimply trying to lighten thingsup a bit. If you think I'm poking fun at George, you are right, but I have myreasons. I tried to helpGeorge with his project when he was having problems with his machine eatingtips. I offered him some drawingsof an infeed and outfeed shoe to hold the strip down as it passed under, andout of the cutter head. Hisphotos showed that he had nothing to secure the strips save the operatorshand and he could not produce a tipsection unless it just happened by blind luck. In typical fashion, he hadalready decided the problem waswith the bed of his machine and had no interest in even hearing anything else.I was not the only person that tried to help George with this problem to noavail, and for the record, Ireally hoped George would pull it off. I still think had his ego been a bitsmaller and his patience a bitlarger, he would have been busy filling bastard orders as we speak. Thereason I say this is simpleexperience. I have all the work I can handle building plastic rods and the thingI hear time and again frommy fly angling customers about bamboo is the high price keeps them frompursuing a bamboo rod. As I've saidearlier, most folks these days have no experience with bamboo, and areunwilling to commit so much money tosomething they may not like. I've seen lots of posts here about the everhigher prices for graphite rods, butin the real world, only a tiny fraction of users actually pay those prices. Very few experienced fly fishersbother with the latest and greatest, they have found an action that suitstheir style and they look for anaffordable stick that will serve their needs, which is why (I think) folks get into bamboo rod building.It's the action they are most comfortable with and since most of the tapersare no longer commerciallyavailable, they build their own. It's the entry level folks with large walletsthat wind up supporting theupper end of the major's product lines. I think that's why they change whatthe greatest is so often, onceword gets around about what (in most cases is) a colossal rip off, sales falloff and the next deb is trottedout for the uninformed to suck up simply because it is the latest andgreatest. In the realm of plastic flyfishers there is an ever growing resentment of this trend. I've seen a hugeincrease in fly rod orders overthe last several years and most of these folks are looking for an action thatused to be available off theshelf, but was dropped in favor of the latest and greatest.If you think the angling world is standing by waiting for a bamboo rod and theonly thing keeping them from itis availability, you should seriously rethink your reasons for trying to massproduce bamboo. I have thehighest respect for builders that are willing to take the time and effort tolearn the art of bamboo rodmaking, how they get there is a matter of personal preference, it's thefinished product that speaks volumesabout the builders dedication to their craft. I think the only way to make anyreal money in bamboo is tooffer tools and materials to the builders. Perhaps instead of trying to massproduce bamboo rods, you shouldconsider producing an affordable beveller based on your design. "T. Ackland" wrote: I do not find it particularly funny at all, his name could not be mentioned onthis list which was reallysmall minded, but so has been most of the cracks regarding bevellers.George has a son that did most of the work while his father played on thecomputer, they have tons of goodcane and I am sure you have not heard the last of them. I certainly wouldhave liked to see them succeedand so should you mean bastards because if he had got it right it wouldmade his rods good introductionrods and perhaps you all would have benefited. One customer on FFmentioned that the bastard that hepurchased was roughly made but could cast very well and chose it over the the custom cane rods hepossessed and fished it hard because he did not put too much money intoit. I cannot imagine a bettertribute than that?But you guys did not make ugly rods when you first started did you?TerryCustom Built Fishing Rods wrote: It seems this thread has spawned a new variation on the ever popularterm "screwed". We can now referto any such situation as being "ginked", as in, I "ginked" that one up, or hegot "ginked". I knewGeorge would turn out to be useful for something besides the productionof hot air. Terry, this is the real world, this is where You risk ginking Yourself. Theleap from beingthe lonely craftsman by the beveller to being the boss of a company. Ifear that is whathappened to poor George. He ginked himself. He thought it was only aquestion of buyinga beveller and whammo, of f You go. Well, he found out the hard waythat there was moreto it than a big mouth and a beveller. Gink. from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Jan 4 10:12:24 2001 f04GCNI22409 2001 08:12:23 PST Subject: Re: Straightening blank near butt ..and while your at it slip a marshmallow up over theend of the cane. when the marshmallow gets toasty slipit between two gramcrackers. :>) timothy --- Tony Young wrote:Try using a pop up toaster set to the lowest heatand take your timeheating it over it. Tony At 08:42 AM 1/4/01 -0600, Frank Stetzer wrote:I glued up a rod a while ago, and it came out witha slight kinkway down on the butt, about where the rod willleave the handle.I can do an OK job of straightening farther up therod, using Max Satoh's clothes iron method, but I've tried theiron and alsoa heat gun on this spot without much results. Idon't think I'mgetting enough heat into the rod. Its a blond rodso I'm trying not to scorch it. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallidfaces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush andnervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stuntedforms and weedy, time to waste. A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!http://photos.yahoo.com/ from KeithApril@excite.com Thu Jan 4 10:22:50 2001 f04GMnI23270 Subject: Re: Planing form channel On Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:27:53 -0600, jojo@ipa.net wrote: the same type blocks, used with oil, to bring it all to specs. Be awarethatall triangle files are not equilateral. Some will be more so than others.Use a thread gauge to get as close as possible, and go through all thefilesin a box. The India stones do tend to be right on spec.If you want a simple, though not inexpensive, way to set the gaps in yourforms use plug gauges. You can tighten each station just snug, move tothenext station using a .005 less gauge, and so on until your through allthestations, then go back through them all again to insure accuracy. In thebeginning there is so much metal to remove that you needn't be tooconcernedwith accuracy, but as you go along you will want to pay attention. M-D I also found it to be true that triangle files aren't always equilateral. Check them before you buy if you can. If I were to build another set of forms, I would use the 60 degree lathetool as Bob suggested. One thing I did that helped speed things up a little bit was to set the gapbetween the forms and then file the groove on _both_ sides of the formsbefore indexing the gap again. Essentially working on both sides at once. Keep a close eye on the depth, tip especially! Keith _______________________________________________________Send a cool gift with your E-Cardhttp://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ from gjm80301@yahoo.com Thu Jan 4 10:34:50 2001 f04GYoI24152 2001 08:55:31 PST Subject: Re: Mass apeal - the end - finally I think that you speak for most here when you say that you are notagainst someone mechanizing the planing/milling process. It'simportant to differentiate George's between efforts from his ornery,insecure nature. It is the latter that got him his well- deserved rephere. Beveller versus hand-planing as the issue is a straw man. --- Custom Built Fishing Rods wrote:> I apologize ifI offended anyone with my remarks about getting"ginked", I was simply trying to lighten thingsup a bit. If you think I'm poking fun at George, you are right,but I have my reasons. I tried to helpGeorge with his project when he was having problems with hismachine eating tips. I offered him some drawingsof an infeed and outfeed shoe to hold the strip down as it passedunder, and out of the cutter head. Hisphotos showed that he had nothing to secure the strips save theoperators hand and he could not produce a tipsection unless it just happened by blind luck. In typical fashion,he had already decided the problem waswith the bed of his machine and had no interest in even hearinganything else.I was not the only person that tried to help George with thisproblem to no avail, and for the record, Ireally hoped George would pull it off. I still think had his egobeen a bit smaller and his patience a bitlarger, he would have been busy filling bastard orders as we speak.The reason I say this is simpleexperience. I have all the work I can handle building plastic rodsand the thing I hear time and again frommy fly angling customers about bamboo is the high price keeps them from pursuing a bamboo rod. As I've saidearlier, most folks these days have no experience with bamboo, andare unwilling to commit so much money tosomething they may not like. I've seen lots of posts here aboutthe ever higher prices for graphite rods, butin the real world, only a tiny fraction of users actually pay thoseprices. Very few experienced fly fishersbother with the latest and greatest, they have found an action thatsuits their style and they look for anaffordable stick that will serve their needs, which is why (Ithink) folks get in to bamboo rod building.It's the action they are most comfortable with and since most ofthe tapers are no longer commerciallyavailable, they build their own. It's the entry level folks withlarge wallets that wind up supporting theupper end of the major's product lines. I think that's why theychange what the greatest is so often, onceword gets around about what (in most cases is) a colossal rip off,sales fall off and the next deb is trottedout for the uninformed to suck up simply because it is the latestand greatest. In the realm of plastic flyfishers there is an ever growing resentment of this trend. I'veseen a huge increase in fly rod orders overthe last several years and most of these folks are looking for anaction that used to be available off theshelf, but was dropped in favor of the latest and greatest.If you think the angling world is standing by waiting for a bamboorod and the only thing keeping them from itis availability, you should seriously rethink your reasons fortrying to mass produce bamboo. I have thehighest respect for builders that are willing to take the time andeffort to learn the art of bamboo rodmaking, how they get there is a matter of personal preference, it'sthe finished product that speaks volumesabout the builders dedication to their craft. I think the only wayto make any real money in bamboo is tooffer tools and materials to the builders. Perhaps instead oftrying to mass produce bamboo rods, you shouldconsider producing an affordable beveller based on your design. "T. Ackland" wrote: I do not find it particularly funny at all, his name could not bementioned on this list which was reallysmall minded, but so has been most of the cracks regardingbevellers.George has a son that did most of the work while his fatherplayed on the computer, they have tons of goodcane and I am sure you have not heard the last of them. Icertainly would have liked to see them succeedand so should you mean bastards because if he had got it right itwould made his rods good introductionrods and perhaps you all would have benefited. One customer on FFmentioned that the bastard that hepurchased was roughly made but could cast very well and chose itover the the custom cane rods hepossessed and fished it hard because he did not put too muchmoney into it. I cannot imagine a bettertribute than that?But you guys did not make ugly rods when you first started didyou?TerryCustom Built Fishing Rods wrote: It seems this thread has spawned a new variation on the everpopular term "screwed". We can now referto any such situation as being "ginked", as in, I "ginked" thatone up, or he got "ginked". I knewGeorge would turn out to be useful for something besides theproduction of hot air. Terry, this is the real world, this is where You risk ginkingYourself. The leap from beingthe lonely craftsman by the beveller to being the boss of acompany. I fear that is whathappened to poor George. He ginked himself. He thought it wasonly a question of buyinga beveller and whammo, of f You go. Well, he found out thehard way that there was moreto it than a big mouth and a beveller. Gink. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!http://photos.yahoo.com/ from cmj@post11.tele.dk Thu Jan 4 10:47:31 2001 f04GlUI24920 Subject: Ginked - an explanation f04GlVI24921 Terry wrote >snipped Terry Since I was responsible for introducing the word GINK, as got ginked,like in screwed up, I'll give an answer to Your remarks, includingthe above quotation. It will be short and sweet, and hopefully not inspireto a continuation down that particular road. Yes, Everyone, Yours truly included, started up with making rods notquite up to Your standard, Terry. Come to think of it, I probably stilldon`t. The difference between George and the rest of us, and that includes You,is than none of us started our rodmaking endeavours by declaring ourcolleges/competitors in spe a bunch of bumbling morons, and anything elseGeorge is/was capable of thinking of. That he failed in producing the300$ cane rod of superb quality is indeed a shame, and I mean ithonestly. I am convinced that if George's attitude had been different,he could have asked this list for advice and gotten it plentifull. It hasbeen a hallmark on Rodmakers List that advice is given freely, no matterwho is asking. I can think of only one exception, at that is when someoneasks You about Your beveller. Then You clamp up in a most uncharacteristicway. That is Your choice, and I and the rest of the listmembers, I feel,respectit without any hard feelings, and personally with understanding. George chose a different path. By downgrading everyone and all, he, ina blurred way, I suspect , hoped to upgrade himself. Instead he outgradedhimself. He ginked. I am not happy about it. Neither am I truly sorry. I just don't give a damn. Ithink mostof us feel the same way: GG ginked, so who cares? regards, Carsten from jbbamboo@hotmail.com Thu Jan 4 11:19:48 2001 f04HJlI26773 Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:19:42 -0800 HTTP; Thu, 04 Jan 2001 17:19:41 GMT Subject: Re: Straightening blank near butt FILETIME=[86A2A810:01C07672] Hello Frank:I use a basic toaster, wristwatch and a couple of rubber thumb cups for all my straightening. For the butt section you're probably going to have to heat it up several times as it's obviously quite thick in this area. Use your wristwatch and increase time as needed. Most toasters won't stay on more then 3 minutes and you're probably going to have to repeat theprocess. I use the thumb cups and hold pressure in the direction I want the bend to take place and rotate the rod as I heat it. Don't release the pressure until the rod cools or you'll be starting all over again. It may take a while but if you're careful you can straighten the section without darkening the rod. This is also an excellent way to straighten a rod section that has already been varnished. Go slowly with the heat. If a varnished rod is too hot to hold in your bare hands then you're on the verge of ruining the finnish. I've gone high tech and now have a 4 slice toaster. I can now straighten a rod and cook my breakfast at the same time. Good luck.Jim From: Frank Stetzer Subject: Straightening blank near butt I glued up a rod a while ago, and it came out with a slight kinkway down on the butt, about where the rod will leave the handle.I can do an OK job of straightening farther up the rod, usingMax Satoh's clothes iron method, but I've tried the iron and alsoa heat gun on this spot without much results. I don't think I'mgetting enough heat into the rod. Its a blond rod so I'm tryingnot to scorch it. The rod is glued with resorcinol so its pretty tough. Once the handle is on the kink probably won't be noticable. ButI'd like to get it out anyway. Any advise?......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and aEmployed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. _________________________________________________________________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com from across@www.downandacross.com Thu Jan 4 11:23:26 2001 f04HNPI27085 f04HNQI27086 Dear List and Tom:My e-mail has been screwy so I apologize for this being late. I appreciate theinfo on the cutters from the list and Tom. I apologize if anyone got the wrong ideas about my original question. When you see $3 cutters in all the tool catalogs, and you are a novice, they lookthe same. I was not trying to say that Tom's cutters were overpriced, morelikely that I am cheap! I appreciate this sort of openness that Tom shows time and time again. Thisis what the list should be about.Thanks, Bob Maulucci -------------------------------------------------------------------This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/-------------------------------------------------- ----------------- from utzerath@execpc.com Thu Jan 4 11:53:19 2001 f04HrII28757 f04HrDt79670 f04HrCd98624 Subject: Speaking of mills I was just paging through "Best of the Planing Form" and wondered if anyonehad tried the "taper milling system" sketched up by Bob Milward. He seemsto address the in/out feed problem with a pair of rollers. Best to all in the new year,JIm U from destinycon@mindspring.com Thu Jan 4 12:01:40 2001 f04I1eI29193 Subject: in need of Does anyone happen to have an extra copy of D. Spurr's "Classic BambooRodmakers: Past & Present" you could sell me? Please contact me off list,Thanks.Best regards,Gary H. from gjm80301@yahoo.com Thu Jan 4 12:21:27 2001 f04ILRI00542 2001 10:42:04 PST Subject: Does anyone know the dates for Grayling 2001? Trying to plan ahead. Thanks. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!http://photos.yahoo.com/ from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Jan 4 12:26:48 2001 f04IQlI01100 VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: Speaking of mills I was just paging through "Best of the Planing Form" andwondered if anyonehad tried the "taper milling system" sketched up by BobMilward. Yes, I'm just a few hours away from completing this milling system. I hopeto try it in a week or two and will provide a write up to the list. One thing I like about this design is that I can create a basicstraightline taper template for all my strips and then just do the finalplaning to the actual dimension in my forms. Richard from darrell@rockclimbing.org Thu Jan 4 13:50:34 2001 f04JoXI05602 sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) Subject: RE: The Bastards' Back or don't worry about what he's doing...concentrate on building a better rod I don't think George ever left... I saw and cast rod #41 10/99. Certainly the finish and cosmetics waslacking, but it actually did cast well. I believe he is a brusher as hemissed a couple of spots on the rod that had no varnish on it and he usednylon. Actually he's raised his prices to where there are not too much lower thanother new cane rods on the market. I think they are no longer thatattractive in price compared to rods available elsewhere. Look what he's done. Remember the old saying, any publicity is goodpublicity. He's got all you and others on the web constantly talking abouthim and his rods. He's getting a ton of free publicity from everyone. Soeveryone has now heard of his rods. He was brilliant in his marketing bygetting everyone talking about his rods... for better or worse. Is there a market for his rods? I think so, but I think there is a market cannot sell their rods. If you are having trouble, you simply contact a roddealer to sell the rods for you. The advantage is you don't need to spendany time learning html, building a website, spending money for hostingservices, submitting to the hundreds of search engines, meta tags, takingpics, getting a digital camera, dealing with buyers, endless questions andinstead you can concentrate on building the best rod you possibly can. I've learned in business that it's better to lead than to follow. Don'twaste time being critical of his or others products but build a betterproduct. i.e. product x is good but my product is better because of this andthat. But since rod making is such a labor intensive craft, there is reallyvery little competition and there are more than enough buyers foreveryone'srods at this time. Probably the most important bit of advice I would give rod makers is to tryto become more well known such as getting published in a magazine ormentioned on a TV or radio show. Or mentioned in a book. Notice all the rodmakers listed in the books in print are able to get a premium price over therest of the rod makers. Dealers are also a good way to promote yourproductsas they are in contact with a lot more people on a daily basis than arodmaker. To summarize, build a quality product, charge a fair price, get your nameand product out there and don't worry about the competition. If you providea quality rod at a fair price, you'll have all the customers you need andyou won't have time to worry about other rod makers or their quality or lackthereof. My .02 cents and then some... Darrellwww.vfish.net -----Original Message----- Subject: The Bastards' Back No need to grieve guys, check out his updated site.I think I may download a greeting card and send it from all the guys onrodmakers! from hexagon@odyssee.net Thu Jan 4 13:50:49 2001 f04JomI05627 [142.169.183.117] (may be forged)) Subject: Re: Mass apeal Seth,did not mean to send that, hit the send button intead of the file, it was notfinished.There is a rather puritanical element on the list that requires rods to bemadein a certain way.A hand mill is acceptable, a roughing beveller is also acceptable but a bevellerthat finishes to size is taboo and takes away from the craft. A guy canboastthat he can mill up a set of blanks with a morgan in 45 min and it is ok. Imentioned that I would be hard pressed to beat that but would save onmuscleand it is wrong. If someone could explain what is the minimum amount of backandforth arm motions required per rod to qualify for a quality product I wouldappreciate?Just kidding Seth Steinzor wrote: Come on Terry, you're a clever man with a lot to say and you can do betterthan name calling. I'm rooting for you to get into production the way Ialso rooted for the ginkmeister. Seems like you have a better chance ofsucceeding. So don't waste my bandwidth and goodwill with this juvenilegarbage. - the git from Vermont -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 9:08 AM Cc: RodmakersSubject: Re: Mass apeal John,what you see on this list is vindictive little punks John Kenealy wrote: Everyone seems to be complaining about the possibility of Chinesebamboorods flooding our market. Isn't it the same thing when flies are tied inKenyan sweat shops?? Don't we price American tiers out of the market? Isupply my own shop with flies I tie myself- so I can make money on them,but how can a tyer compete with $3.50/dozen??? I get inquiries everyweek from companies in Kenya wanting to sell me flies. The biggest rip-off arethe companies like LL Bean who get flies at these low prices and thenturnaround and charge sky high prices. Here, in Maine, there used to be a thriving shoe industry- it is now inChina. There is one company that I know of that has found a nichemakinghigh quality hand-sewn shoes, and they seem to be doing well.There is a point where we all have to make a stand and support localindustry when we can. That's my $.02 worth. John Kenealymountain Valley flies ----- Original Message -----From: marty Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 6:01 AMSubject: Re: Mass apeal W. Bruce Combest wrote: Where are these good places to buy these flies?----- Original Message ----- From: marty Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 6:26 AMI have had a few inquiries about flies on line. One is Hill'sDiscount Flies at (509) 972-0412 (Oregon I believe). I have another butcan't as yet find the price list. I believe that one has an 800 number.Both have price lists. No financial interest, yata- yata- yata- bla -bla- bla. Marty PS . URL's can be found at Virtualflyshop.com under fliesauction. Yea, I stopped tying flies when I could buy them off the net for$7.95per dozen and they where as good and better than mine. Marty Tony; anyone with a problem understanding this need onlylookat whathappened to our flies. There was a time not all that long agothatimportedflies were poorly made, using shoddy materials. Sam Surre used to tie for (name brand omitted) shops. Hefinally gaveit upafter finding one to many of his original patterns had madethe tripacrossthe big water, with quite respectable imitations coming backat halftheprice he was getting. Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu TonyYoungSent: Monday, January 01, 2001 7:39 PMSubject: Re: Mass apeal Jim,like I've mentioned a few times now, it's amazing it hasn'talreadyhappened. I used the example of R&Ding Morgan mills just toillistrate theease this could be done in but you are correct, they'dactually usebrokenglass and one piece forms exactly as you say. What you wrote re. the interest shown in your rod alsohappened to mebutin this case it was ferrules. I used to work for a Koreanownedcomputercompany and did a little work for them from home after Iofficialyleftthem. The owner came around one day to discuss things andfound me atthelathe. I showed him what I was doing and what they were forand hecouldn'tbelieve his luck at finding something that only needed peopletoilingat alathe for hrs at a time. He asked how long it takes, I toldhim twicethetime it actually takes, he halved it right off saying hisfactorymakingmother boards in China "have people who are very fast,veryyoung,littlefingers".He grosly underestimated the accuracy needed at first thenshruggedhisshoulders and said something like that's not a problem, theylearn ortheyout. The thing is, I know they'll learn. In the end Iconvinced him Icouldn't possibly use several thousand of each size becausethere areprobonly 100 bamboo rods made annualy all over the world andhelostinterestright away. I know, I fibed but it was for a good cause.Skilled labor and technical expertise is not a problem, whenyou'rehungryand you want a TV you learn fast.I know nothing I write here will make a dif but if this everhappenedyou'll see the first run will be almost good enough, the nextrunwill bebetter and after that even we would have difficulty inhonestlyknockingthem as a good useable rod and you wont believe howquicklyit canhappen. Tony from fbcwin@3g.quik.com Thu Jan 4 14:11:54 2001 f04KBrI07238 Subject: Re: Mass apeal Terry, Are you sure you haven't read your own prejudices into other folksremarks? Idon't recall reading on this list that rods made with bevellers or mills wereinferior. I seem to remember that some folks expressed doubts about thewisdom ofsawing strips rather than splitting, but I really don't remember anyone sayingplanes were better than mills. Of course, I haven't really paid any of thismuchattention. But lately I've read a lot of ramblings from you and others which implythathand planing is a second-class way to make rods. If so, maybe you ought torecallall the rods you hand-planed. (grin) You seem to be the one doing all thegripingthat others methods are inferior. No question that hand planing is more labor intensive. But is it really aninferior construction method?. There are some things a mill can do better,likemultiple compound tapers. But a hand planed rod isn't categorically worsethan amilled rod, is it? Most of us really don't begrudge your mill. We like what we do. And wewishyou the very best in what you are trying to do. Harry "T. Ackland" wrote: There is a rather puritanical element on the list that requires rods to bemadein a certain way.A hand mill is acceptable, a roughing beveller is also acceptable but abevellerthat finishes to size is taboo and takes away from the craft. from mcdowellc@lanecc.edu Thu Jan 4 14:39:26 2001 f04KdPI09072 with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 04 Jan 2001 12:42:52 -0800 Subject: Re: Clarification needed f04KdQI09073 Hi Frank, Thanks for the clarification. I've made a few from your taper with the .005"subtracted from each station. It remains a fast rod and throws tight loopswith a 5DT, and I like it. I guess I haven't tried the original version provided the situation, but you may want to leave it and give it a different name orversion #, because I for one think it's a good one. Thanks. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu Frank Stetzer 01/04/01 06:07AM >>>Chris, That is my mistake. I'm not sure why I subtracted varnish on animpregnated rod...probably just not paying attention. I'll correct it. Chris, if you or anyone see mistakes like this just let me know.......................................................................Frank Stetzer "...a cheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. On Wed, 3 Jan 2001, Christopher McDowell wrote: Question for Reed Curry or anyone who might know the answer. ThePhillipson 7' 5 wt. posted by Reed shows measurements that are .005"greater then that which is in the classic taper archive for this same rod. Therod is impregnated yet .005" is deducted for varnish on the archived taper. Which one is correct? Thanks. Chrismcdowellc@lanecc.edu from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Jan 4 14:44:55 2001 f04KisI09370 VL-MS-MR002.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: The Bastards' Back or don't worry about what he'sdoing...concentrate on building a better rod I believe he is a brusher... I recall reading in one of Gink's daily updates that he in fact uses thevarnish- in-a-latex-glove method of finishing. Richard from tjtrodmaker@yahoo.com Thu Jan 4 15:33:36 2001 f04LXZI11635 2001 13:33:31 PST Subject: RE: The Bastards' Back or don't worry about what he'sdoing...concentrate on building a better rod richard, have you ever tried this method yourself? ihave tried it. i know some have liked it. it turnedinto an evening of light humor for my observers. ididn't ruin anything but i sure made a mess. you knowwe've all tried things we don't do anymore. i was justwondering if you had had a success your self at anypoint with this method. timothy p.s. ....and how isthe weather up there? --- Richard Nantel wrote:I believe he is a brusher... I recall reading in one of Gink's daily updates thathe in fact uses thevarnish- in-a-latex-glove method of finishing. Richard ====="Gooda' morning mister bear" __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!http://photos.yahoo.com/ from across@www.downandacross.com Thu Jan 4 15:43:41 2001 f04LheI12078 Subject: cutters f04LhfI12079 If this is a repeat, I apologize. Dear Tom: I appreciate your information on the cutters, and I will order some soon. I am convinced that it is not worth the effort in trying to find better. I am sure that with the responses to the list and off list, that the new cutters are excellent. I never intended (although I was aware of the dangers) to say you were price gouging anyone, as I know you to be an honest man of the highest integrity. But, I must admit that my untrained eye sees a lot of $3 carbide inserts in the various catalogs that come my way, and I was curious. I appreciate you clearing this up, and I applaud your openness in such matters. Thanks. Best regards, Bob Maulucci ================================================== http://www.powerfibers.com http://www.downandacross.com -------------------------------------------------------------------This message has been posted from Mail2Web http://www.mail2web.com/Web Hosting for $9.95 per month! Visit: http://www.yourhosting.com/-------------------------------------------------- ----------------- from stpete@netten.net Thu Jan 4 16:24:59 2001 f04MOwI14109 Subject: Re: Mass apeal Terry and all the other fools like me who are still reading this thread: This discussion has been somewhat entertaining even though it has been timeconsuming.There is no doubt that a superior mill which is adjustable in 1" or even lessthan 1"increments would make a superior rod if designed to the maximum efficiencyto a handplaning form which is adjustable in 5" increments. So what? How many of usareactually selling rods? Of those who do, how many actually want morebusiness? Theseare fishing poles, right? Good God, man, how much fun can this be if you can get your panties alltwisted overthe fact that someone on this list learned to make a rod and now sells themtosatisfied customers? Should we say that he must make one hundred rodsbefore he candeserve the priviledge of selling them? Two hundred? What is the number? You know, there have been some damn fine innovative ideas come from thelist membersregarding the construction and finishing of cane rods in one's basementshop,notwithstanding the fact that those ideas are of no help or interest to you. I believe that you are honest and I would be willing to bet that your millingmachineis everything that you say it is. I hope that someday you do produceexcellent rods atreasonable or even outrageous prices and succeed in all your endevours. Itmattersnot to me what the price of a good cane rod is - today or tomorrow. I makecane rodsas an amatuer and I enjoy it. In the meantime, why bother to titillate us or thumb your superior nose at ushalfwits. Are you that bored? Rick C. from caneman@clnk.com Thu Jan 4 16:52:19 2001 f04MqJI15113 (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61365U2500L250S0V35) Subject: Re: The Bastards' Back or don't worry about what he'sdoing...concentrate on building a better rod I don't know if he's a brusher or not. He asked me for pictures of my diptank operation because he said he didn't like his. He also mentioned thathis dipping operation had plexiglas doors on it and they helped keep thedust away from the rod... of course, that was a long time back and he mayhave changed by now. Later,bob -----Original Message----- hexagon@odyssee.net; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Subject: RE: The Bastards' Back or don't worry about what he'sdoing...concentrate on building a better rod I believe he is a brusher... I recall reading in one of Gink's daily updates that he in fact uses thevarnish- in-a-latex-glove method of finishing. Richard from dannyt@frisurf.no Thu Jan 4 16:53:49 2001 f04MrmI15292 (MET)User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Subject: Re: Was Mass apeal, now planing form Anyone thought of having adjustable stations between the 5" stations. Itwill be a lot of bolts to turn, but if the outcome will be superior to astandard 5" planing form, well ought for the best don't we............. regardsdanny There is no doubt that a superior mill which is adjustable in 1" or even lessthan 1" increments would make a superior rod if designed to the maximumefficiency to a hand planing form which is adjustable in 5" increments. from rp43640@online-club.de Thu Jan 4 17:04:39 2001 f04N4cI16015 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 00:04:29 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Was Mass apeal, now planing form Danny, a lot of the french rodbuilders and also some german rodbuilders haveplaning forms which are adjustableevery 10 cm (about 4 inches). Christian 04-01-2001 23:52:13, Danny Twang wrote: Anyone thought of having adjustable stations between the 5" stations. Itwill be a lot of bolts to turn, but if the outcome will be superior to astandard 5" planing form, well ought for the best don't we............. regardsdanny from dnorl@qwest.net Thu Jan 4 18:12:43 2001 f050CeI18748 (63.228.44.186) Subject: Re: carbide inserts Thanks Tom,I should know based on past experience that you would be right on top of it.Best Regards to You and Gerri hope I can get out and see you again nextSummer.Dave Norling-----Original Message----- Subject: carbide inserts Since there has been public discussion of the carbide inserts used inthe Morgan Hand Mill I would like to provide the following information. The original carbide inserts can be ordered from the following supplier: Airgas Tool and SupplyCorporate Distribution Center2225 Workman Mill RoadWhittier, CA 90601-14371-800-289-4787 Insert number is TT321Inscribed circle is 3/8"Tip radius is .015"Model C- 2Airgas part number 2035 5320 In their most recent catalog the price per insert is $6.18 or $12.36 perset of 2 plus shipping. On occasion, they can be purchased from theirsale catalog at a reduced price. There are other inserts that will fit the cutter heads. However, thesize & tolerance is very critical otherwise there is not a sufficientclearance between the tips and the insert points will chip when theinserts are installed. Or, if the clearance is too great, there will bea gap between the points that is too large and the top of the bamboostrips will not be cut properly. This can sometimes be corrected withequal shims behind the carbide inserts to move the inserts the properdistance apart. I have experimented with different carbide inserts from other suppliersand have found one that I am supplying now in lieu of the original oneslisted above. They seem to be sharper and provide somewhat longerlife. However, that is not to say that the original inserts don't workvery well. Their number is: TPGH-321 JT-2. They may be available offthe shelf but I haven't found a supplier without having them customground. The success of the Hand Mill depends on the carbide inserts so I havealways been open about the source of the cutters and have tried toprovide replacement inserts at a price consistent with their cost. If abetter insert surfaces I would be happy to distribute the information tomy customers. Sincerely,Tom Morgan from Grhghlndr@aol.com Thu Jan 4 18:23:56 2001 f050NtI19270 Subject: Kirsten Gould/Ray's granddaughter rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Guys,I just got an e-mail from Ray on an update on his granddaughter. She is in and out of Childrens Hospital in Seattle going thru treatments and such. If Kirsten Gould21704- N.E. 203rd STWoodinville, WA 98072 She also has an e-mail address which is kirsty621@aol.com. I know if we take the time to send her e-mails and maybe a card or two it will really boost her spirits and maybe have some positive effect on her treatments and hopefully a full recovery. It is a proven fact the good spirit and good attitude helps in time of illness. I know Ray has really appreciated all who have taken the time to drop him a line about Kirsten and the words of encouragement to him have been a tremendous help to him in this time of worry. Bret from flyrod@pop.digisys.net Thu Jan 4 19:04:53 2001 f0514qI20746 Subject: Speaking of gatherings, Does anyone know if there will be a gathering in Troutdale this year? I sent an Email to the address I had for the organizer of the last one but got no response. At this point I am mainly interested in when it might be so I can plan time off work ect.Thanks, Jim Jim Flinchbaughflyrod@digisys.nethttp://www.digisys.net/users/flyrod from ChristopherO@epicimaging.com Thu Jan 4 19:25:40 2001 f051PdI21300 (5.5.2448.0) rodmakers@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Speaking of gatherings, Jim, the last troutdale gathering was 1999, and was organized by garylohkamp, who did a very nice job.He does not feel that he will be able to organize the event again, and hasasked kevin calloway to organized the event (who then asked for myassistance).We're going to do all we can to make sure the event continues - and I havebeen soliciting any program ideas, interests, etc. to make the meeting mostuseful to all. Please, anyone with any ideas, let me know. As to timing, traditionally the meeting has been held in late april or earlymay. Kevin is researching sites (he thought it might be nice to have accessto a lake for casting, even better if it had trout in it), but we may resortto the previous meeting hall (gary has connections so the building is free -a lake would probably necessitate a fee). Any reactions either way - send them to us. As soon as a tentative date can be pegged, we'll let all interested partiesknow. chris -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 5:00 PM Subject: Speaking of gatherings, Does anyone know if there will be a gathering in Troutdale this year? I sent an Email to the address I had for the organizer of the last one but got no response. At this point I am mainly interested in when it might be so I can plan time off work ect.Thanks, Jim Jim Flinchbaughflyrod@digisys.nethttp://www.digisys.net/users/flyrod from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Jan 4 19:38:45 2001 f051ciI21961 VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: Was Mass apeal, now planing form Anyone thought of having adjustable stations between the 5"stations. The planing forms I use (sold by Grindstone) were designed by Ted Knott andhave 2.5 inch centers for the bottom 30 inches of the butt section (to makeswelled butts) and the top 30 inches of the tip (to add extra control tothe critical tip section). Richard from Rcolo@ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 4 19:42:30 2001 f051gTI22170 UAA21689; Subject: Re: Was Mass apeal, now planing form Danny I know personally that a certain number of rod makers that havebevelersmike at every three inches....Rich Danny Twang wrote: Anyone thought of having adjustable stations between the 5" stations. Itwill be a lot of bolts to turn, but if the outcome will be superior to astandard 5" planing form, well ought for the best don't we............. regardsdanny There is no doubt that a superior mill which is adjustable in 1" or evenlessthan 1" increments would make a superior rod if designed to themaximumefficiency to a hand planing form which is adjustable in 5" increments. from Michael.Roberts@health.wa.gov.au Thu Jan 4 20:03:37 2001 f0523YI22919 Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 05 Jan 2001 10:02:00 +0800 (5.5.2651.58) RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.eduSubject: RE: Straightening blank near butt Hi Frank,I had the same problem with my second rod (glued with Resourcinolof course) and I got good results by heating it over my trusty old toaster.It is a blonde rod so I took the precaution of binding about five incheseither side of the kink with cotton crocheting thread. I reasoned that ifthis started to scorch I should back off on the heat. Leather gloves wereworn and I held the rod until it cooled. Voila!! Dead straight and stilldoing fine after eighteen months and some serious casting.Since there has been a bit of interest in local weather on thelist lately, I thought some of the gang might be interested in what it'slike down-under in West Oz at the moment: Sky, cloudlessAir temp. 90 degrees FBeach sand, brilliant whiteSea water, crystal clearBeer, icy cold Who was that guy that coined the phrase, "Just another lousy day inParadise". : ) Off to the beach nowMike -----Original Message----- Subject: Straightening blank near butt I glued up a rod a while ago, and it came out with a slight kinkway down on the butt, about where the rod will leave the handle.I can do an OK job of straightening farther up the rod, using Max Satoh's clothes iron method, but I've tried the iron and alsoa heat gun on this spot without much results. I don't think I'mgetting enough heat into the rod. Its a blond rod so I'm trying not to scorch it. The rod is glued with resorcinol so its pretty tough. Once the handle is on the kink probably won't be noticable. ButI'd like to get it out anyway. Any advise?Frank Stetzer "...acheerful comrade is betterstetzer@uwm.edu than a waterproof coat and a Employed by, but not speaking for foot-warmer." Henry Van Dyke,Univ of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, USA "Fisherman's Luck", 1899. from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Thu Jan 4 20:14:12 2001 f052ECI23393 VL-MS-MR003.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: RE: The Bastards' Back or don't worry about what he'sdoing...concentrate on building a better rod richard, have you ever tried this method yourself? No, I haven't tried the latex glove trick. I varnished my first few rods byhand with a foam brush (which worked quite well) but now impregnate them. All the best, Richard from rafick@3riversweb.net Thu Jan 4 20:18:14 2001 f052IDI23633 Subject: salmon fishing This is the most hilarious thing I have seen in a long time. http://lee.cosw.sc.edu/misc/salmon1.mpg R.A.Fick Bamboo Fly RodsThe best rods are being made today.www.angelfire.com/in2/rafickrods from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Jan 4 20:21:50 2001 f052LmI23885 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:21:41 +0800 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:21:39 +0800 Subject: Re: The Bastards' Back or don't worry about what he'sdoing...concentrate on building a better rod He hasn't used any silicon products on or around the rods along the processhas he? Tony At 04:50 PM 1/4/01 -0600, Bob Nunley wrote:I don't know if he's a brusher or not. He asked me for pictures of my diptank operation because he said he didn't like his. He also mentioned thathis dipping operation had plexiglas doors on it and they helped keep thedust away from the rod... of course, that was a long time back and he mayhave changed by now. Later,bob -----Original Message-----From: Richard Nantel hexagon@odyssee.net; rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Date: Thursday, January 04, 2001 2:45 PMSubject: RE: The Bastards' Back or don't worry about what he'sdoing...concentrate on building a better rod I believe he is a brusher... I recall reading in one of Gink's daily updates that he in fact uses thevarnish- in-a-latex-glove method of finishing. Richard /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from avyoung@iinet.net.au Thu Jan 4 20:38:49 2001 f052clI24460 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:38:46 +0800 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 10:38:45 +0800 Subject: RE: Straightening blank near butt RODMAKERS@wugate.wustl.edu Mike, you forgot to mention there are another 4 months of this before itgets nice ;-) Tony Since there has been a bit of interest in local weather on thelist lately, I thought some of the gang might be interested in what it'slike down-under in West Oz at the moment: Sky, cloudlessAir temp. 90 degrees FBeach sand, brilliant whiteSea water, crystal clearBeer, icy cold Who was that guy that coined the phrase, "Just another lousy day inParadise". : ) Off to the beach nowMike /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from lblan@provide.net Thu Jan 4 21:17:45 2001 f053HjI25394 Subject: RE: Does anyone know the dates for Grayling 2001? Jerry; Steve Southard has the dates as June 21- 23http://www.troutbums.com/flyfactory/calendar.cfm Larry Blan -----Original Message-----From: owner-rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 1:42 PM Subject: Does anyone know the dates for Grayling 2001? Trying to plan ahead. Thanks. __________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!http://photos.yahoo.com/ from iank@ts.co.nz Thu Jan 4 21:28:54 2001 f053SpI26033 Subject: Re: Straightening blank near butt Mike and Tony , It was that guy in Nelson who said that " another lousy day in paradise"thing. It is about 85 degreeshere , a light sea breeze to cool things but which should drop about 6.00pmand provide for a good evening rise on the Motueka river tonight. However,as Mike knows , that good rise does not mean you will actually catch any ofthose many rising fish regardless of how many flies you try . :)) The locally made beer and wine are both cold and the sons ( together withgirlfriends and other hangers on ) who have been with us for the last coupleof weeks are returning to their homes tomorrow so I can return to my quietexistence, and know once again that the beer in the fridge will remain thereuntil I wish to drink it . Ian K ----- Original Message ----- Subject: RE: Straightening blank near butt Mike, you forgot to mention there are another 4 months of this before itgets nice ;-) Tony Since there has been a bit of interest in local weather on thelist lately, I thought some of the gang might be interested in what it'slike down-under in West Oz at the moment: Sky, cloudlessAir temp. 90 degrees FBeach sand, brilliant whiteSea water, crystal clearBeer, icy cold Who was that guy that coined the phrase, "Just another lousy day inParadise". : ) Off to the beach nowMike /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from thinair@townsqr.com Thu Jan 4 22:03:23 2001 f0543MI27391 compaqwww.townsqr.com for;Thu, 4 Jan 2001 21:56:51 -0600 Subject: tung and varnish type="multipart/alternative"; This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C0769A.0C0577E0 ------=_NextPart_001_008F_01C0769A.0C0577E0 Here's a novice question: Can varnish or lacquer be applied over tung =oil to build up wraps? I "tunged" a whole rod, new wraps and all, just =to see how it would work. The cane finish is fine, but I'd like to =build up the wraps a little more. Thanks. ------=_NextPart_001_008F_01C0769A.0C0577E0 BODY {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}P.msoNormal {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}LI.msoNormal {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}PRE {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT- SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}BLOCKQUOTE {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}A {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT- SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}MENU {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}DD {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}UL {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}DT {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}DIR {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}ADDRESS {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT- SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}H1 {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}H2 {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}H3 {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}H4 {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}H5 {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}H6 {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"}HR {MARGIN-TOP: 0em; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0em; COLOR:#000000; =FONT-FAMILY: "Arial"} Here's a novice question: Can varnish or lacquer be applied over = ------=_NextPart_001_008F_01C0769A.0C0577E0-- ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C0769A.0C0577E0 name="tech.gif" R0lGODlhFAAUAPcAAP//////zP//mf//Zv//M///AP/M///MzP/Mmf/MZv/MM//MAP+Z//+ZzP+Zmf+ZZv+ZM/+ZAP9m//9mzP9mmf9mZv9mM/9mAP8z//8zzP8zmf8zZv8zM/8zAP8A//8AzP8Amf8AZv8AM/8AAMz//8z/zMz/mcz/Zsz/M8z/AMzM/8zMzMzMmczMZszMM8zMAMyZ/8yZzMyZmcyZZsyZM8yZAMxm/8xmzMxmmcxmZsxmM8xmAMwz/8wzzMwzmcwzZswzM8wzAMwA/8wAzMwAmcwAZswAM8wAAJn//5n/zJn/mZn/Zpn/M5n/AJnM/5nMzJnMmZnMZpnMM5nMAJmZ/5mZzJmZmZmZZpmZM5mZAJlm/5lmzJlmmZlmZplmM5lmAJkz/5kzzJkzmZkzZpkzM5kzAJkA/5kAzJkAmZkAZpkAM5kAAGb//2b/zGb/mWb/Zmb/M2b/AGbM/2bMzGbMmWbMZmbMM2bMAGaZ/2aZzGaZmWaZZmaZM2aZAGZm/2ZmzGZmmWZmZmZmM2ZmAGYz/2YzzGYzmWYzZmYzM2YzAGYA/2YAzGYAmWYAZmYAM2YAADP//zP/zDP/mTP/ZjP/MzP/ADPM/zPMzDPMmTPMZjPMMzPMADOZ/zOZzDOZmTOZZjOZMzOZADNm/zNmzDNmmTNmZjNmMzNmADMz/zMzzDMzmTMzZjMzMzMzADMA/zMAzDMAmTMAZjMAMzMAAAD//wD/zAD/mQD/ZgD/MwD/AADM/wDMzADMmQDMZgDMMwDMAACZ/wCZzACZmQCZZgCZMwCZAABm/wBmzABmmQBmZgBmMwBmAAAz/wAzzAAzmQAzZgAzMwAzAAAA/wAAzAAAmQAAZgAAMwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACwAAAAAFAAUAEAIQwBJCBxIsKBBAAgTKlyYUCDDhwsdQpwoceLDihYjksh4cSNHjR9BhmzocSQAjCFRflTJkWVGlxZhUiw5UiZEgzhzBgQAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C0769A.0C0577E0-- from thinair@townsqr.com Fri Jan 5 00:08:35 2001 f0568YI29978 compaqwww.townsqr.com ;Fri, 5 Jan 2001 00:02:03 -0600 Subject: Re: tung and varnish & wrapper Thanks for the information. I was pretty sure about the varnish, and theadvice about laquer helps for future reference. I used Formby's out of thebottle with a foam makeup sponge, light steel wool between coats. It's verynice, but having tried it now, I think I prefer Tru-Oil applied the sameway. I'm just a hobbyist working on reconditioning rods for personal use(this one is a SB 359), some work for friends, and a few for eBay (to keepme in supplies), so all the information I can glean here from you pros helpsout tremendously. BTW, I use a Flex-Coat hand wrapper, and for my purposes it's great. Everytime I use it I ask myself why I struggled with the book method for so long.I put the two felt pads between the tensioner cups and I haven't had anytrouble with frayed thread. I still haven't figured out how to make a nice,smooth transition wrap from ferrules to cane, though... ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: tung and varnish Gary,Just use a fine tipped sable artists brush, put the rod on a turner, andvarnish the wraps only, being careful not to let keep your varnish on thewraps and not let it spill over onto the rod. I wouldn't use Laquer forthis, because laquer, when dried, doesn't have the flexibility that varnishdoes. Use a clear gloss spar varnish or spar urethane. If, once you getthe build you want, the varnish is too glossy to match the rest of the rod,then polish it down. Start with a super fine polish, like Finesse-it, andwork down to a #7 auto polish (Turtle Wax brand works good and you can getit almost anyplace that sells car wax.Just curious, did you use pure tung oil, one of the commercial handapplied tung oil finishes or a tung varnish? Later,Bob -----Original Message----- Subject: tung and varnish Here's a novice question: Can varnish or lacquer be applied over tung oil tobuild up wraps? I "tunged" a whole rod, new wraps and all, just to see howit would work. The cane finish is fine, but I'd like to build up the wrapsa little more. Thanks. from stuart.rod@gmx.de Fri Jan 5 02:35:06 2001 f058Z5I02232 Subject: TBFR Goodmorning, Is the Bamboo Fly Rod magazine up and running again? Sorry for dragging this old topic up again, I keep seeing mentions ofit on various sites and the BFR site looks as though it is being updatedbut I never seem to have actually had an answer to my requests forsubscription. Thankyou Stuart from horsesho@ptd.net Fri Jan 5 05:05:11 2001 f05B5AI04341 Organization: ProLog Subject: Bastard Hi all, This list is begining to read like a mean spirited lurecollectors list. The fact is that all fly rods are made to cast a lineand catch fish. It does not matter if the taper is taken every 1" or 10"or if made on a form or beveller as long as it casts a line well enoughto present a fly ( or in Dennis H. friend Andy's case a kernel ofcorn). I also do not think it's a big deal to once or twice a year heat straighten a rod set from use. This can be done in 2 min. over aheat gun and no, you do not have to heat the rod up to the varnishmelting point as Terry does. He needs some practice. Now that said when Terry markets a Leonard or Payne style beveller for$1500 I will be the first in line to purchase one. Until then, I willcontinue haplessly planing away. Marty from petermckean@netspace.net.au Fri Jan 5 05:13:25 2001 f05BDNI04519 f05BDJx56956 Subject: Mass lack of appeal Organization: vet This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C07763.DDF59220 Dear Listmembers I must say I am not at all sure where this thread is going; neither am I =at all certain that I care! I am certainly not going to change my modus operandi because of anything =Ackland tells me; and I am quite sure that what I think does not =interest him in any way at all. Ackland thinks that we are "vindictive little punks"; I think he is a =whingeing Pom, and a wanker, with a very significant problem with his =self esteem! I can only hope that he makes a full and speedy recovery from his =haemorrhoid surgery! And I thought I was misusing bandwidth talking about beer ! Peter ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C07763.DDF59220 Dear Listmembers I must say I am not at all sure where = I am certainly not going to change my = Ackland thinks that we are "vindictive = punks"; I think he is a whingeing Pom, and a wanker, with a very = problem with his self esteem! I can only hope that he makes a full = recovery from his haemorrhoid surgery! about beer ! Peter ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C07763.DDF59220-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 5 07:37:04 2001 f05Db3I06274 Subject: Re: Mass lack of appeal 1842DCD1491F0F9FEB6D036B" --------------1842DCD1491F0F9FEB6D036B An Australian comedian? now thats a first petermckean wrote: Dear Listmembers I must say I am not at all sure where this threadis going; neither am I at all certain that I care! I am certainly notgoing to change my modus operandi because of anything Ackland tellsme; and I am quite sure that what I think does not interest him in anyway at all. Ackland thinks that we are "vindictive little punks"; Ithink he is a whingeing Pom, and a wanker, with a very significantproblem with his self esteem! I can only hope that he makes a full andspeedy recovery from his haemorrhoid surgery! And I thought I wasmisusing bandwidth talking about beer ! Peter --------------1842DCD1491F0F9FEB6D036B An Australian comedian? now thats a first petermckean wrote: Dear mustsay I am not at all sure where this thread is going; neither am I at all am certainly not going to change my modus operandi because of anythingAckland tells me; and I am quite sure that what I think does not interest thinks that we are "vindictive little punks"; I think he is a whingeingPom, and a wanker, with a very significant problem with his self can only hope that he makes a full and speedy recovery from hishaemorrhoid thoughtI was misusing bandwidth talking about beer --------------1842DCD1491F0F9FEB6D036B-- from dnorl@qwest.net Fri Jan 5 07:45:06 2001 f05Dj5I06592 (63.228.47.89) " 'RODMAKERS'" Subject: Re: Mass lack of appeal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C076ED.4A4C1240 Why do they call them haemorroids--- why don't they call them =assteroids?- ----Original Message-----From: petermckean Date: Friday, January 05, 2001 5:13 AMSubject: Mass lack of appeal Dear Listmembers I must say I am not at all sure where this thread is going; neither =am I at all certain that I care! I am certainly not going to change my modus operandi because of =anything Ackland tells me; and I am quite sure that what I think does =not interest him in any way at all. Ackland thinks that we are "vindictive little punks"; I think he is =a whingeing Pom, and a wanker, with a very significant problem with his =self esteem! I can only hope that he makes a full and speedy recovery from his =haemorrhoid surgery! And I thought I was misusing bandwidth talking about beer ! Peter ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C076ED.4A4C1240 Why do they call themhaemorroids--- = they call them assteroids? -----Original = 'RODMAKERS' <rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu= Friday, January 05, 2001 5:13 AMSubject: Mass lack of= appealDear Listmembers I must say I am not at all sure = care! I am certainly not going to change = operandi because of anything Ackland tells me; and I am quite sure = all. Ackland thinks that we are = little punks"; I think he is a whingeing Pom, and a wanker, = significant problem with his self esteem! I can only hope that he makes a = recovery from his haemorrhoid surgery! talking about beer ! Peter ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C076ED.4A4C1240-- from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 5 07:49:34 2001 f05DnXI07029 Subject: Re: Bastard Marty,this list is not about making fishing poles, it is about creating exquisiteworks of art to immortalize the makers.It is my experience that if you can straighten a rod with mild heat thenthere is a problem and the set will keep returning. I came to thisconclusion in my workshop, not by sitting in front of a screen marty wrote: Hi all, This list is begining to read like a mean spirited lurecollectors list. The fact is that all fly rods are made to cast a lineand catch fish. It does not matter if the taper is taken every 1" or 10"or if made on a form or beveller as long as it casts a line well enoughto present a fly ( or in Dennis H. friend Andy's case a kernel ofcorn). I also do not think it's a big deal to once or twice a yearheat straighten a rod set from use. This can be done in 2 min. over aheat gun and no, you do not have to heat the rod up to the varnishmelting point as Terry does. He needs some practice.Now that said when Terry markets a Leonard or Payne style beveller for$1500 I will be the first in line to purchase one. Until then, I willcontinue haplessly planing away. Marty from Grhghlndr@aol.com Fri Jan 5 08:17:43 2001 f05EHgI09153 Subject: Ray Goulds e-mail address Guys,Some idiot (me) posted Ray's e-mail address wrong on the list. I put it as Raygould@cmc.net and it should be rsgould@cmc.net. If anyone else has had mail bounced back like some have told me use this address instead. Sorry guys.Bret from jmpio@nhbm.com Fri Jan 5 09:05:19 2001 f05F5II11311 Subject: Rod Set The endless bickering, er, I mean "thread" regarding the differences betweensplit and planed vs. sawn and bevelled rods was .... well, it was something.Unfortunately it obscured one interesting issue, but raised another. The thread started over an article in Power Fibers concerning a possibleproblem with bevelling. Being math-impaired I found it a bit hard tofollow, but I think I got the basic premise, which is that with bevelling,or at least certain bevellers, you end up with asymmetrical splines. Thepremise seemed to be supported by what, at bottom, was some simplegeometry,though it required some difficult conceptualizing to understand (toodifficult for me). Can any of you math-whizzes comment on this, and onwhether it would actually make any difference in the finished rod? Another question raised by Terry is whether split and planed rods would takemore set than sawn and bevelled rods. Of the rods I've rebuilt, one I wascertain was sawn and bevelled. Another I was fairly certain was split andplaned. The rest I could not be sure, most were relative junk in any event,and were definitely production rods (Montagues, Chubbs and HIs) so wereprobably sawn and bevelled. Every single rod I've ever seen that had beenfished and not recently rebuilt(I have run across only one in near mintcondition) had taken a set. Does anyone else have empirical evidence thatrods built in different ways are more or less likely to take a set? from nobler@satx.rr.com Fri Jan 5 09:09:27 2001 f05F9QI11628 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:00:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Handmill cutters Yes, carbide inserts are usually ground with either a square edge, or aslight taper. I haven't cross referenced the cutters yet, but will as I wantto try Sumitomo cutters. They are so sharp, you can engage the auto feedwith a cut-off blade, and it will part off 2.5" dia. steel, without boggingdown, and hanging up ! Anyone who has had to cut-off steel, knows howunlikely this is ! I understand they are very expensive, but if they do abetter job, they may be worth it, and last much longer. GMA from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Jan 5 09:18:28 2001 f05FIQI12163 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:18:23 +0800 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:18:21 +0800 Subject: Re: Mass lack of appeal "'RODMAKERS'" Hey that's a good one tezza obviously public (English) bottom jokes are rightup your alley as it were.This isn't a flame, just a request. Pretty much everybody who's been on this list become desensitized in timetoyour comments and not a few have fired a broadside back before thishappens, meincluded. I regretted it in the end because it did no good except cause you tobecome helpful for a change just before you left the list last time which Iguess was a response to my mentioning I'd never seen you help in aconstructiveway on the list and you wanted to spite me. Possibly not but the negativesideof you was muzzled for a short time but seems to have been released againthistime round. I wrote privately to you in this week passed but don't know if you read themessage, in any case I wrote how I'm glad to see you back on the list which Iwas and still am which if you think about it is wierd.I enjoy our little snipes as much as you obviously do but I honestly wishyou'dresist the temptation of hitting below the belt. Name calling andquestioning aperson's integrity etc is something best left in the playground of 5 yearolds. It's mean spirited and really uncalled for. I once wrote things to you which Iwish I didn't thinking you could take as good as you give but you tookoffence,badly it seemed so it's not like you don't know what it's like when youpick ona newbie or person who is not looking for this kind of treatment on what forthe vastly greater part is a very friendly list. If you really are on the list for the good of the craft and "want people tothink for themselves" at least be as tolerant of people as we are of you.Somepositive messages wouldn't be a bad thing on the odd occasion too.If all you're doing is basically stirring up an ant's nest for fun, I wishyou'd bugger off again. Tony At 08:43 AM 1/5/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: An Australian comedian? now thats a first petermckean wrote: Dear Listmembers I must say I am not at all sure where this thread isgoing; neither am I at all certain that I care! I am certainly not going tochange my modus operandi because of anything Ackland tells me; and I amquite sure that what I think does not interest him in any way at all.Acklandthinks that we are "vindictive little punks" I think he is a whingeing Pom,and a wanker, with a very significant problem with his self esteem! I canonly hope that he makes a full and speedy recovery from his haemorrhoidsurgery! And I thought I was misusing bandwidth talking about beer !Peter /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from nobler@satx.rr.com Fri Jan 5 09:20:50 2001 f05FKoI12463 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 09:13:36 -0600 Subject: Re: (Not rodbuilding) Nylon Line I've fished the braided Micron line for many tournaments, even on a procircuit, for over 40 years. Combined with some of the CF, and boron rods,I've caught bass over 6 lbs. that my partner simply couldn't feel ! Now withsome of these new copolymer lines, the sensitivity should be greater !Micron, and these newer rods are not light sensitive, like nylon, andmonofilament. In tournaments, I changed my mono spinning lines every trip.Your know strength is considerably greater, by doing this ! I think it's theultra-violet that rots these early lines. GMA from earsdws@duke.edu Fri Jan 5 09:22:15 2001 f05FMFI12640 KAA05687; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Duke University Medical Center Subject: tung oil and varnish Gary et al.,My experience with varnish over tung oil has been limited to somefurniture and (acres, literally) a restoration of my 1948 Chris Craftmahogany runabout, which sees more sun and water in a day than a canerod will see in a lifetime. On the advice of a professional restorer, Iused a saturating/heavy coat of tung oil varnish first after a completestrip/sanding, under the (hopefully correct) assumption that it wouldpenetrate better/deeper than a slightly thinned Captains spar varnish onthe hull and decks. This would provide a deeper base/grip when Ifollowed with 11 coats of straight captains spar containing the samevehicle oils. (The boat is 26', so, yes, I remortgaged the house andbought in 50 gal. drums :) ). The finish was/is beautiful and showslittle sign of wear after 5 summers, though she gets a fair bit ofsun/water/abuse for 3-5 weeks each summer.Ray Gould was helpful in pointing out in a similar thread about ayear ago that, however, the tung oil does NOT provide a moisturebarrier, so it does require a spar topping.Hope this helps, dws. Gary wrote:Here's a novice question: Can varnish or lacquer be applied over tungoil to build upwraps? I "tunged" a whole rod, new wraps and all, just to see how itwould work. Thecane finish is fine, but I'd like to build up the wraps a little more.Thanks. from richard.nantel@videotron.ca Fri Jan 5 09:41:26 2001 f05FfPI13537 VL-MS-MR002.sc1.videotron.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) Subject: Was Rod Set is now Milling Article in Powerfibers eZine Can any of you math-whizzes comment onthis, and on whether it would actuallymake any difference in the finished rod? Well I'm no math whiz but I did try to sketch out what the author of thatarticle was saying about the milling machines that cut only one side at atime. The problem with his view, in my opinion, is that he assumes that oneentire side of a strip will be milled down in one pass and then the otherside will be milled down in one pass. Taking an entire side down to size inone pass will skew the angle of the fibers, making them run off the sidesrather than go straight along the strip. I'm still a week or so away from trying out my Millward-style beveller butwould suspect that taking an entire side down to size in one pass will notbe possible without getting some rather chewed up strips. Rather, it willbe a case of doing a pass, then flipping the strip and doing another pass.Adjusting the fence and then continuing with alternating passes until thedesired dimension is achieved. In this way, there's no real differencebtween taking the cane down using a mill or using a plane. The cane isstill removed gradually from each side, maintaining the straight alignmentof fibers. Richard from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Jan 5 09:48:24 2001 f05FmMI13914 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:48:20 +0800 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:48:17 +0800 Subject: Re: Rod Set I don't know how you could test this to a very fine degree but I can't seehow it can matter.I'm certain there is no continuity of "grain" from one end of the culm tothe other because the nodes get in the way and everything becomesconfusedat the nodes.Look at wood which does have grain. If the wood is figured due to alteringpatterns of grain what happens when you split it? It follows the grain, nomatter how hard you try you cannot make a split without the wood followingthe grain. If you saw this wood without regard to the grain and use it in astressed situation you are looking for trouble. Now look at a culm of bamboo. When you split it badly the splines wanderall over the place. Common sense would dictate the split is following "thegrain" however with experience the splines become more narrow and you areable to control the split. If you use Bob Nunley's method not only can youcontrol the width of each spline it's also a very fast way of splitting. Infact as I've written before I'd have to see a bandsaw or table saw do thejob fast faster with the same results before I'd believe it. Now, if there is grain in the bamboo how come you can control the splitwith experience. If you compare a spline that needs a lot of heating tostraighten because it "followed the grain" during the splitting wouldn'tthis strip be better than a neatly controled spline?Nope, the "grain" is only continious between nodes, the nodes are a bowl ofspagetti and without control the split will wander along the line of leastresistance once past the node. I would think sets occur due to moisture. Varnish is not really waterproofand over time the bamboo will reabsorb moisture. Tony Another question raised by T*@@$ is whether split and planed rods wouldtakemore set than sawn and bevelled rods. Of the rods I've rebuilt, one I wascertain was sawn and bevelled. Another I was fairly certain was split andplaned. The rest I could not be sure, most were relative junk in any event,and were definitely production rods (Montagues, Chubbs and HIs) so wereprobably sawn and bevelled. Every single rod I've ever seen that had beenfished and not recently rebuilt(I have run across only one in near mintcondition) had taken a set. Does anyone else have empirical evidence thatrods built in different ways are more or less likely to take a set? /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from SSteinzor@atg.state.vt.us Fri Jan 5 10:01:15 2001 f05G1EI14743 Fri, 5 Jan 2001 11:01:13 -0500 "'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu'" Subject: RE: Rod Set Because the individual "power" fibres don't have a lot of sheer strength.Grain in wood isn't directly analogous to bamboo fibres. Wood grain is theannual/annular growth pattern. Bamboo fibres are something else again. -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 10:49 AM Cc: 'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu'Subject: Re: Rod Set Now, if there is grain in the bamboo how come you can control the splitwith experience. from avyoung@iinet.net.au Fri Jan 5 10:08:22 2001 f05G8KI15227 Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:08:19 +0800 Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:08:16 +0800 Subject: RE: Rod Set "'rodmakers@wugate.wustl.edu'" I'm not actually suggesting there is grain as we know it in wood. I'msaying forget the grain as you'd see it in wood. If bamboo was the same aswood the argument of splitting to conserve the grain would make sense butas there is no grain as you see it in wood splitting, sawing, planing ormilling makes no difference to the finished splines. I'm basicaly saying all this about conserving the integrity of the "grain"doesn't apply with bamboo. The idea of following the grain harks back toworking with wood and it's not as you point out the same structure so these Tony At 11:03 AM 1/5/01 -0500, Seth Steinzor wrote:Because the individual "power" fibres don't have a lot of sheer strength.Grain in wood isn't directly analogous to bamboo fibres. Wood grain is theannual/annular growth pattern. Bamboo fibres are something else again. Now, if there is grain in the bamboo how come you can control the splitwith experience. /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from hexagon@odyssee.net Fri Jan 5 10:25:49 2001 f05GPmI16344 "'RODMAKERS'" Subject: Re: Mass lack of appeal Tony,lists are all about having a little fun, it is not the real world, no one getshurt but those that take themselves too seriously. There is absolutely noneed for"experts" like yourself to to be standing by at all hours dishing outlargehelpings of advice, there is a search engine for newbies to use that goway backto day one of rodmakers and it has all rehashed a thousand times.I shall be back at work on Moday, off the list and back to normal. What isnormal hopeit was not too much of a chore to delete the crap?800 not bad, not bad at all, see ya, eh?Terry Tony Young wrote: Hey that's a good one tezza obviously public (English) bottom jokes arerightup your alley as it were.This isn't a flame, just a request. Pretty much everybody who's been on this list become desensitized in timetoyour comments and not a few have fired a broadside back before thishappens, meincluded. I regretted it in the end because it did no good except cause youtobecome helpful for a change just before you left the list last time which Iguess was a response to my mentioning I'd never seen you help in aconstructiveway on the list and you wanted to spite me. Possibly not but the negativesideof you was muzzled for a short time but seems to have been releasedagain thistime round. I wrote privately to you in this week passed but don't know if you read themessage, in any case I wrote how I'm glad to see you back on the list whichIwas and still am which if you think about it is wierd.I enjoy our little snipes as much as you obviously do but I honestly wishyou'dresist the temptation of hitting below the belt. Name calling andquestioning aperson's integrity etc is something best left in the playground of 5 yearolds. It's mean spirited and really uncalled for. I once wrote things to you which Iwish I didn't thinking you could take as good as you give but you tookoffence,badly it seemed so it's not like you don't know what it's like when youpick ona newbie or person who is not looking for this kind of treatment on whatforthe vastly greater part is a very friendly list. If you really are on the list for the good of the craft and "want people tothink for themselves" at least be as tolerant of people as we are of you.Somepositive messages wouldn't be a bad thing on the odd occasion too.If all you're doing is basically stirring up an ant's nest for fun, I wishyou'd bugger off again. Tony At 08:43 AM 1/5/01 -0500, T. Ackland wrote: An Australian comedian? now thats a first petermckean wrote: Dear Listmembers I must say I am not at all sure where this thread isgoing; neither am I at all certain that I care! I am certainly not going tochange my modus operandi because of anything Ackland tells me; and Iamquite sure that what I think does not interest him in any way at all.Acklandthinks that we are "vindictive little punks" I think he is a whingeing Pom,and a wanker, with a very significant problem with his self esteem! I canonly hope that he makes a full and speedy recovery from hishaemorrhoidsurgery! And I thought I was misusing bandwidth talking about beer !Peter /*************************************************************************/AV Young Visit my web site at: www.iinet.net.au/~avyoung/flyrod.html And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt meAs they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste,With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy, A.B.("Banjo") Paterson /*************************************************************************/ from earsdws@duke.edu Fri Jan 5 10:58:13 2001 f05GvuI18015 LAA10395; Organization: Hearing Research Laboratories, Duke University Medical Center Subject: Re: Was Rod Set is now Milling Article in Powerfibers eZine This is a multi-part message in MIME format.-------------- 7515DC33CAA46F5779124329 --------------B55B8E0E003E5330919F7162 Richard,I, too, was working my was through his point and, after drawing up theattached diagram, believe Neuner is correct in his statements on thedifferencein the orientation of the fibers between a one-sided milling machine and atwo-sided (hand-planed or Morgan-milled) beveled strip.His point that this would make a huge difference in producing a skew orsetseems reasonable, but is more intuition than fact-based.Another point, which is made visually apparent in the left drawing is thata final, planed strip of cane, with the fibers (ideally, but not realistically)running perfectly parallel from one end of the strip to the other, will have(in a perfectly parallel- running fiber set) virtually fiber cut at some point,except those in a band the width of the thinnest, tip section. If this is so(and it must be) then it really doesn't matter how you get to that final planedstrip, you will always have the same number of fibers cut, the same numberremaining. So, the difference on the road/journey to the finished rod is oneof taste, tradition, proclivities.These fall into the category of art/religion and are hard to argue in anysort of dispassionate manner, and all will produce essentially the samebeautiful end product. This drawing is also attached should anyone wish tohave a look. dws.[Image] Richard Nantel wrote: Can any of you math-whizzes comment onthis, and on whether it would actuallymake any difference in the finished rod? Well I'm no math whiz but I did try to sketch out what the author of thatarticle was saying about the milling machines that cut only one side at atime. The problem with his view, in my opinion, is that he assumes that oneentire side of a strip will be milled down in one pass and then the otherside will be milled down in one pass. Taking an entire side down to size inone pass will skew the angle of the fibers, making them run off the sidesrather than go straight along the strip. I'm still a week or so away from trying out my Millward-style beveller butwould suspect that taking an entire side down to size in one pass will notbe possible without getting some rather chewed up strips. Rather, it willbe a case of doing a pass, then flipping the strip and doing another pass.Adjusting the fence and then continuing with alternating passes until thedesired dimension is achieved. In this way, there's no real differencebtween taking the cane down using a mill or using a plane. The cane isstill removed gradually from each side, maintaining the straight alignmentof fibers. Richard Richard, after drawing up the attached diagram, believe Neuner is correct in hisstatements on the difference in the orientation of the fibers between aone-sided milling machine and a two-sided (hand-planed or Morgan- milled)beveled strip. in producing a skew or set seems reasonable, but is more intuition thanfact- based. the left drawing is that a final, planed strip of cane, with the fibers(ideally, but not realistically) running perfectly parallel from one endof the strip to the other, will have (in a perfectly parallel- running fiberset) virtually fiber cut at some point, except those in a band the width it really doesn't matter how you get to that final planed strip, you willalways have the same number of fibers cut, the same number So, the difference on the road/journey to the finished rod is one of taste,tradition, proclivities. are hard to argue in any sort of dispassionate manner, and all will produce Richard Nantel wrote:Can any of you math-whizzes comment onthis, and on whether it would actuallymake any difference in the finished rod?Well I'm no math whiz but I did try to sketch out what the author ofthatarticle was saying about the milling machines that cut only one sideat atime. The problem with his view, in my opinion, is that he assumesthat oneentire side of a strip will be milled down in one pass and then theotherside will be milled down in one pass. Taking an entire side down tosize inone pass will skew the angle of the fibers, making them run off thesidesrather than go straight along the strip.I'm still a week or so away from trying out my Millward-style bevellerbutwould suspect that taking an entire side down to size in one pass willnotbe possible without getting some rather chewed up strips. Rather, itwillbe a case of doing a pass, then flipping the strip and doing anotherpass.Adjusting the fence and then continuing with alternating passes untilthedesired dimension is achieved. In this way, there's no real differencebtween taking the cane down using a mill or using a plane. The caneisstill removed gradually from each side, maintaining the straightalignmentof fibers.Richard